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Re: telfon solid wire brittle?


 
8/25/2004 11:06 AM
DD Re: telfon solid wire brittle?
What you said is correct. Electrons are negatively charged objects that always are attracted o a positive charge. But what I'm saying is...  
 
All current flows are always back to ground. For convenience sake we always refer to ground as being negative while in reality it can be either negative or positive depending on whether we are talking about an electron flow away from ground or an electron flow back to ground.  
 
For example, the output of a tube which has a positive potential will flow through the coupling cap, then through the grid resistor, and then back to ground. Because electrons have been displaced from ground as a result of being attracted to the positive plate of the tube, ground in a relative way becomes positive for the return flow back to ground. The labeling of ground as negative, though not completely correct, actually serves a purpose because it is required to do so to deal with component polarity issues.  
 
This is really an issue of semantics. For example, ground is always labeled negative even though it has to be positive relatively speaking at the moment that it attracts electrons back to it. So in a real sense ground can function as both a positive and a negatively charged object depending on the direction of the current flow -- toward or away from ground.  
 
Describing ground as both being both positive and negative can be confusing. Because of this ground is just normally considered negative. So when I said that current flows from positive to negative, I meant that current always eventually flows back to ground which has been simplified to be considered negative for purposes of polarity.  
 
The laws of physics are still intact and you can sleep comfortably knowing that electrons are negatively charged and flow toward positively charged objects. But at the same time it is helpful to know that all current flows must eventually flow back to ground. And from the standpoint of component polarity ground is considered negative.
 
8/25/2004 10:04 AM
DD
No, I'm not saying it's nonexistent. I'm saying that most humans cannot hear the difference including myself.  
 
My take on silver wire is this: your average plate resistor is 100K, your average grid leak resistor is 220K, your average vol control is 1M, your average tone control is 250M. When you look at it from that standpoint then a few nano-ohms difference between wiring placed between these high resistance components makes absolutely no difference.  
 
Regarding skin effect, it does not exist at audio frequencies and really only exists when dealing with RF.  
 
And with respect to your comment:  
 
"Please explain how an AC signal knows which end of the wire is the 'input' and which end is the 'output'."  
 
You seem to have some difficulty comprehending. Audio signals don't have minds that think. Electrons flow from positive to ground by the laws of physics. When using polarized wire, the builder needs to know what direction the electron flow is going and then implement the polarized wire accordingly.  
 
I'm just the messenger. I'm telling you the theory which falls into the realm of overkill. You seem to be antagonistic because it's something you don't buy into. I don't necessarily buy into it either so leave me alone. Go beat up on someone else if you are not satisfied with the explanantion. I didn't invent polarized wire.  
 
But I'm definitely not saying that silver conductor never makes a difference. What I'm saying is is that silver has to be used in large enough quantities to make a meaningful difference. For example, output transformers wound completely with silver wire will sound noticeably different than the same xfmr wound with copper. The silver xfmr to many people will sound better and will usually have more highs. But the cost is prohibitive unless you don't mind spending $3000 for your OT.
 
 
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8/25/2004 11:06 AM
anonymous
D,  
 
Had you no history of posting high-end audio type marketing BS, then I would not have called you out.  
 
Your refusal to admit that maybe you were wrong in the last debate on teflon wire makes me beleive that you have no real world experience with any of this stuff, and are simply parroting what you have heard/read.  
 
If humans can't hear the difference with the wires you go on and on about, why post about them?  
 
Please post your relevant experience with real-world materials that dont only work "In Theory". There are many newbies here reading posts such as yours, and misinformation such as polarized wire will surely get them into trouble. Save it for other forums where there are those who buy into these myths.  
 
You seem to have some difficulty comprehending. Audio signals don't have minds that think. Electrons flow from positive to ground by the laws of physics. When using polarized wire, the builder needs to know what direction the electron flow is going and then implement the polarized wire accordingly.  
 
Again, please explain how the electrons know which way to go in a polarized wire. Since an AC signal's current flow changes direction WRT frequency, I cant understand how a wire which will impede the signal for one-half of the cycle is a benefit( or, as Wild Bill posted, is any different from a diode).  
 
Please clarify.
 
8/25/2004 11:19 AM
DD
You seem to be a low-fidelity kind of guy. Who am I to get in the way of your pleasure. Feel free to persue your low fidelity ambitions.  
 
On the other hand, I am a person with an open mind and am adventurous enough to review material from all walks of engineering. I don't have a problem with high fidelity engineering. If you do, hey that's your thing.  
 
And regarding your requests for me to tailor my postings to your rules, I refuse. Who appointed you internet Police? If you don't like what I said ignore it. In a free society you have that right. At the same time I have the right to post what I consider relevant information.  
 
And regarding your need for clarification on polarized wire, please see the answer I gave to another poster a few minutes ago. It addresses the same issue in more detail.
 
8/25/2004 3:42 PM
DD Myth #5
After rereading your posts, it is apparant that you are having a hard time comprehending my expanantion of polarity because you are victimizing yourself by believing in myth #5.  
 
Myth #5 says: AC signals always alternate directions and never travel in a single direction like DC. After all, it's alternating current so by definition AC has to always alternate direction, or so the myth tells us.  
 
If you believe in myth #5 you would immediately question why polarity applies to AC audio signals because to you audio would appear to be alternating directions. You would also think polarity only applies to DC PS circuitry which you clearly implied in one of your replies. If that's how you think, you need to adjust your thinking to allow yourself to understand what is really going on inside of an audio amplifier.  
 
Pure AC is always nonpolar in the sense that it reverses direction and polarity. If the world only had pure AC then myth #5 would be true. But Pure AC is actually quite rare within amplifiers with the exceptions being the AC coming from your wall socket, the AC coming out of the PS tranny secondary, and the audio AC coming out of the output tranny secondary.  
 
With the few exceptions mentioned, none of the audio traveling on wiring within your amplifier will be pure AC. Instead most audio within the amp will be a combination of a small AC audio signal supperimposed on top of a larger pure DC signal which results in a signal that really never reverses direction. In other words, to say that AC must always reverse direction and can never be unidirectional is a myth. The best way to describe AC within an amp is to look at it as varying DC rather than simply as pure AC.  
 
To illustrate what I'm talking about, let's look at the rectifier circuit within your PS. We all know that a full wave rectifier will turn AC from the PS transformer secondary into DC. But is it really pure DC? Well no, because it has a varying component called ripple that varys at 120 cps despite the fact that the generated 'DC' signal travels only in one direction.  
 
And the 120 ripple is clearly not pure AC because the electrons creating the 120 cps signal clearly never change direction. Despite not being pure AC, we can prove that the AC ripple component is indeed audio by siphoning a small amout off through a resitor network and feeding it into a speaker. It will indeed hum at 120 cycles so we know it is audio eventhough it does not have the alternating directional quality suggested by misguided myth #5.  
 
I used the PS example because it was simple, but the same concept carries through the entire amplifier. In the plate circuit a varying voltage drop across the plate resistor is superimposed on top of a much larger DC plate voltage, the result being a unidirectional AC signal moving toward the grid of the next stage and then to ground.  
 
In the cathode circuit, the audio AC passed from the previous stage through the coupling cap is then superimposed on the much larger DC grid bias voltage resulting in a varying DC signal containing AC audio that is strictly unidirectional.  
 
In general what I said is true for all class A and AB1 amps whether they operate in SE or PP. And to freak you out even further, it is even true of phase inverters which split the unidirectional input signal into two other unidirectional signals, each being 180 out of phase with each other.  
 
In fact the only topology that would allow electrons of an audio signal to change direction would be an amp running in class AB2 where the grid is allowed to go positive for a small portion of the cycle and at that point pulls grid current.  
 
In sum electron flow of audio within your amp is for the most part unidirectional with an input and an output side to the circuit despite the fact that the circuit carries AC. If the words, 'input' and 'output' confuse you, then simply substitute the words 'negative' and 'positive' respectively. You'll get the idea.  
 
I normally don't go into this much detail with technical explanations but you really seemed to completely miss it so I treated you as a special case and thought I'd help you out of your misery. If you really want to understand how audio amplifiers work then it is imparative that you understand that audio AC signals within amplifiers are for the most part unidirectional varying DC that is the combination of a pure AC signal superimposed on a pure DC signal. And believe me, the electrons really are flowing in one direction despite what midguided thoughts you might have about AC audio within your amplifier.
 
8/25/2004 8:50 PM
chevalij
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Long winded or what. Why go into such detailed garbage to differentiate between a varying DC voltage and AC. Anything above 0V is basically DC. If it dips below 0v or whatever the established baseline voltage is, it's AC. And current (electrons) flow negative or lower charge to positive or higher charge.
 
8/25/2004 11:07 PM
Wild Bill
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Long winded, perhaps. Interesting, nonetheless.  
 
Still, such an in depth explanation of how the AC audio signal is superimposed on the DC tube element voltage is irrelevant to the initial point, IMHO.  
 
Can a wire have polarity? Does this not make it a diode? Would that not generate RFI?  
 
To answer the issue of polarized wire with an explanation of how AC rides on the DC voltage seems a non sequitur to me. Or did I miss something?  
 
.02  
 
---Wild Bill
 
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