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Another phasing question

4/12/2005 6:15 AM
Dave	Another phasing question I was wondering if any of you guys could explain what happens when you run a humbucker in parallel with the middle single coil (i.e. positions 2 + 4 on a standard 5 way with an H-S-H guitar). I recently installed my first handwound humbucker efforts into my Ibanez RG570, into which I've also just added two DPDT on-on-on switches in order to wire the humbuckers for series/coil cut/parallel use. Because it's a 24 fret guitar, I'm coil cutting on the adjustable pole side (closest to neck on neck humbucker and closest to bridge on bridge humbucker). I had to flip the magnets round to make the adjustable coil's magnetic polarity north to work without phasing problems with the middle single coil. It all works beautifully and it's transformed a previously fairly generic sounding guitar into a great sounding guitar. What I'm puzzled about is what happens phasing-wise when you use positions 2 or 4 when the humbucker is in parallel or series humbucking mode? In coil cut mode both the electrical and magentic polarity is reversed between the coils in question, but when both humbucker coils are in use, what happens? I can't discern any phasing problems but my gut instinct tells me that there must be some, as there's 3 coils in use. Is this correct? Cheers, Dave

4/12/2005 6:15 AM

Dave

Another phasing question

I was wondering if any of you guys could explain what happens when you run a humbucker in parallel with the middle single coil (i.e. positions 2 + 4 on a standard 5 way with an H-S-H guitar).

I recently installed my first handwound humbucker efforts into my Ibanez RG570, into which I've also just added two DPDT on-on-on switches in order to wire the humbuckers for series/coil cut/parallel use. Because it's a 24 fret guitar, I'm coil cutting on the adjustable pole side (closest to neck on neck humbucker and closest to bridge on bridge humbucker). I had to flip the magnets round to make the adjustable coil's magnetic polarity north to work without phasing problems with the middle single coil. It all works beautifully and it's transformed a previously fairly generic sounding guitar into a great sounding guitar.

What I'm puzzled about is what happens phasing-wise when you use positions 2 or 4 when the humbucker is in parallel or series humbucking mode? In coil cut mode both the electrical and magentic polarity is reversed between the coils in question, but when both humbucker coils are in use, what happens? I can't discern any phasing problems but my gut instinct tells me that there must be some, as there's 3 coils in use.

Is this correct?

Cheers,

Dave

4/12/2005 8:55 AM
Dwight Listmayer	Jeez Dave ... what a great question!!! ... and I was just about to take a lonnnnng break, 'cuz I don't think my observations and what I said held up too well in the last thread about volume drops in 2 & 4 re: "weird customer problems". I don't have the problem (of volume drop) so what ELSE could I say? I have a Strat that's smokin' with an even 126 decibels in all positions, thru a tiny practice amp, turned to half volume. But with this one, you're exactly in my field, again! I can't explain things as you ask, but I'll gladly tell you what I know. I have an Ibanez RG series HSH, which is just fine, but I'm improving it, and it's a work in progress. Eventually, it too will be like a Jem, with the specific "Steve Vai's Wizardry" automatic coil shunting schematic. I expect no problems. Here's what I've done & noticed so far. I've left the original 2 humbuckers in for now, until I put the brand new zebra (not #%&*#! cream) 4 lead replacements in. The bobbin of the original single coil in the centre broke, so I hastily found a Fender "neck" single coil, SOUTH pole to substitute in. It barely fit, bottom plate's too big, and eventually the lead wires will break, so I ordered and received an OEM middle single, which sure enough is south pole, just like the old one. The temporary Fender S pole pup works fine in the centre with either humbucker, in position 2 and 4 on the 5 way. It's the HB's themselves I never have liked, so that's why I'm changing them to 4 lead and going with Vai's schematic. That will split them automatically as the switch is flipped, just like my son's Jem does, and there's no out of phase issues. But, I wouldn't know what would happen (and don't need to) if you put a NORTH pole or fully RWRP single in the centre. Strat man Dwight

4/12/2005 8:55 AM

Dwight Listmayer

Jeez Dave ... what a great question!!! ... and I was just about to take a lonnnnng break, 'cuz I don't think my observations and what I said held up too well in the last thread about volume drops in 2 & 4 re: "weird customer problems". I don't have the problem (of volume drop) so what ELSE could I say? I have a Strat that's smokin' with an even 126 decibels in all positions, thru a tiny practice amp, turned to half volume.

But with this one, you're exactly in my field, again! I can't explain things as you ask, but I'll gladly tell you what I know.

I have an Ibanez RG series HSH, which is just fine, but I'm improving it, and it's a work in progress. Eventually, it too will be like a Jem, with the specific "Steve Vai's Wizardry" automatic coil shunting schematic. I expect no problems.

Here's what I've done & noticed so far. I've left the original 2 humbuckers in for now, until I put the brand new zebra (not #%&*#! cream) 4 lead replacements in. The bobbin of the original single coil in the centre broke, so I hastily found a Fender "neck" single coil, SOUTH pole to substitute in. It barely fit, bottom plate's too big, and eventually the lead wires will break, so I ordered and received an OEM middle single, which sure enough is south pole, just like the old one. The temporary Fender S pole pup works fine in the centre with either humbucker, in position 2 and 4 on the 5 way.

It's the HB's themselves I never have liked, so that's why I'm changing them to 4 lead and going with Vai's schematic. That will split them automatically as the switch is flipped, just like my son's Jem does, and there's no out of phase issues.

But, I wouldn't know what would happen (and don't need to) if you put a NORTH pole or fully RWRP single in the centre. Strat man Dwight

4/12/2005 8:52 AM
Dave	I'm just curious as to how phasing works when you're using 3 coils at once. On my (now 13 combination) 570, The humbucker coils are RWRP with regards to each other and the adjustable coil is RWRP with regards to the middle single coil. But the slug coil is definitely not RP with regards to the middle coil, and my head starts hurting when I try to figure out if it's RW..... I'm too new at this lark. But it works when you coil cut the adjustable coil and I don't notice any phasing when the humbucker is parallel or series in position 2/4. I find this curious.... What I also find curious is that the schematics for the Jem / RG / Pretty much any other Ibanez guitar on the Ibanez site cut to the 'inside' coil of each humbucker for positions 2 and 4. I've always found this to be a particularly non-quacky sound on 24 fret guitars, and I vastly improved my own 570's 2/4 sound when I flipped the magnets in the humbuckers and cut to the outside adjustable coils instead. Cheers, Dave

4/12/2005 8:52 AM

Dave

I'm just curious as to how phasing works when you're using 3 coils at once. On my (now 13 combination) 570, The humbucker coils are RWRP with regards to each other and the adjustable coil is RWRP with regards to the middle single coil. But the slug coil is definitely not RP with regards to the middle coil, and my head starts hurting when I try to figure out if it's RW..... I'm too new at this lark. But it works when you coil cut the adjustable coil and I don't notice any phasing when the humbucker is parallel or series in position 2/4. I find this curious....

What I also find curious is that the schematics for the Jem / RG / Pretty much any other Ibanez guitar on the Ibanez site cut to the 'inside' coil of each humbucker for positions 2 and 4. I've always found this to be a particularly non-quacky sound on 24 fret guitars, and I vastly improved my own 570's 2/4 sound when I flipped the magnets in the humbuckers and cut to the outside adjustable coils instead.

Cheers,

Dave

4/12/2005 9:13 AM
Dwight Listmayer	Yes, I agree with your curiosity about those schematics cutting to inside coils, and think you're doing a much better job with the outside coils. Sure to be just "ducky". Strat man Dwight

4/12/2005 9:19 PM
Jesse Greenawalt	I only have 22 fret Ibanez guitars, and you're probably right about the middle-neck combo. But I've had universally better results with my bridge-middle combo using the inside coil of the bridge bucker. Maybe it's taste, or maybe the pickups - mine are generally a C2 in combination with an F1, a JB, or something else...

4/13/2005 8:22 AM
Dwight Listmayer	Maybe it's physics? While some people make it really complicated with frequency response measurements and sound spectrum analyzers (not sure if this is right terminology), and I acknowledge that guitar sounds & setup are truly Rock It Science, I'm just a simple 'mechanic' and a 'tuner' looking for performance that pleases the ear. In my opinion, we'll all have have problems with splitting bridge humbuckers, because of how they sit in relation to string oscillating patterns, sonic waves, and the actual amplitudes of vibration, also the shape and size of the space in which the strings travel. That's mechanical, not electronic. Strings have an elliptical mode of vibration, as does a clothesline, if you tug on it and release. The amount of vibration varies, and increases as you gain further distance from the bridge. Again, that's the mechanical or physical bridge, not referring to a bridge pickup. So, vibrations are very weak near the bridge, and this has been measured and charted, I don't know where off hand, but I've seen it and accepted it. Accordingly bridge pickups must be stronger, or higher to "pick up" and translate this "lesser event" (ie. smaller amplitude), which now introduces the electonic issues. This is also the science behind actual pole height or stagger, but let's not go there now. Suffice to say that different strings, compositions, & guages have different vibrational characteristics, and some makers have done "this & that and whatnot else" with their poles to capture what they like best. But simply, the bridge pickup if it's a humbucker is usually sitting at a right angle to the strings, or let's say: square. Really, it should be angled like a Strat bridge pickup. BTW Leo in G & L made those stepped single coil pickups which were a step in the right direction, while Fender used to have those split pole "Wide Range" humbuckers. Kurt Cobain seemed to know that a bridge humbucker should be angled. Take a look at his Jagstang perhaps. I wonder who the heck told him? And you all know about staggered (3 + 3) bass pickups - all of these things exist to capture more bass volume and low end frequency response which is needed, just because of the way strings vibrate, and how much vibration at what point. Umm, I insist that my bridge pups read a minimum of 10% more K ohms higher in resistance than the next closest pickup, but yeah I know ... K's aren't everything. It just works for me. So when we make a single coil out of our right-angled humbucker, by splitting it, the resulting lineup of poles ain't what it should be at the bridge. An angle would be ideal, with the bass side higher towards the neck, and the treble side towards the bridge. I can't explain why physics dictates that in actual language - just know it sounds better, hence it works! If splitting a bridge humbucker, I like inner poles too. They're a little louder and not as thin in tone. I think PRS has a position with 2 humbuckers switched to both inner poles, also both outer poles, for the best of both worlds. Going to the neck humbucker, this has nothing to do with the the topic of splitting, but Lindsey Buckingham found that his entire LP humbucker sounded a little sweeter by turning it around, and I agree. Screw poles getting less vibration & distortion, & slug poles w/cover positioned where the screw coil was. Just by flipping the pup, not the wires or anything else. He found a little sweeter spot towards the center. Regarding 22 fret guitars, it seems that the best spot for a pickup, or for coil 1 of a humbucker is right where the 24th fret would be, if there was a 24th fret. There's obviously a neat harmonic at the "imaginary" 24th fret, and a pickup can capitalize on the vibrational amplitude at that spot, which is just right, all of the time while playing (I'm not suggesting we play harmonics where there are no frets). I think the vibration is ideal and is optimized at that spot, but it can get loud up there, which is why Lindsey (Fleetwood Mac) broke tradition, and sounded different. Well, that's my take on the mechanics of string vibration, pickup locations, pole heights and doing the splits. Mechanics, physics or fine tuning? Whatever ... I'm referring to location, location, location which is the real estate on our guitars, not the electronics inside. Strat man Dwight

4/13/2005 8:22 AM

Dwight Listmayer

Maybe it's physics? While some people make it really complicated with frequency response measurements and sound spectrum analyzers (not sure if this is right terminology), and I acknowledge that guitar sounds & setup are truly Rock It Science, I'm just a simple 'mechanic' and a 'tuner' looking for performance that pleases the ear.

In my opinion, we'll all have have problems with splitting bridge humbuckers, because of how they sit in relation to string oscillating patterns, sonic waves, and the actual amplitudes of vibration, also the shape and size of the space in which the strings travel. That's mechanical, not electronic. Strings have an elliptical mode of vibration, as does a clothesline, if you tug on it and release. The amount of vibration varies, and increases as you gain further distance from the bridge. Again, that's the mechanical or physical bridge, not referring to a bridge pickup. So, vibrations are very weak near the bridge, and this has been measured and charted, I don't know where off hand, but I've seen it and accepted it. Accordingly bridge pickups must be stronger, or higher to "pick up" and translate this "lesser event" (ie. smaller amplitude), which now introduces the electonic issues. This is also the science behind actual pole height or stagger, but let's not go there now. Suffice to say that different strings, compositions, & guages have different vibrational characteristics, and some makers have done "this & that and whatnot else" with their poles to capture what they like best.

But simply, the bridge pickup if it's a humbucker is usually sitting at a right angle to the strings, or let's say: square. Really, it should be angled like a Strat bridge pickup. BTW Leo in G & L made those stepped single coil pickups which were a step in the right direction, while Fender used to have those split pole "Wide Range" humbuckers. Kurt Cobain seemed to know that a bridge humbucker should be angled. Take a look at his Jagstang perhaps. I wonder who the heck told him? And you all know about staggered (3 + 3) bass pickups - all of these things exist to capture more bass volume and low end frequency response which is needed, just because of the way strings vibrate, and how much vibration at what point. Umm, I insist that my bridge pups read a minimum of 10% more K ohms higher in resistance than the next closest pickup, but yeah I know ... K's aren't everything. It just works for me.

So when we make a single coil out of our right-angled humbucker, by splitting it, the resulting lineup of poles ain't what it should be at the bridge. An angle would be ideal, with the bass side higher towards the neck, and the treble side towards the bridge. I can't explain why physics dictates that in actual language - just know it sounds better, hence it works! If splitting a bridge humbucker, I like inner poles too. They're a little louder and not as thin in tone. I think PRS has a position with 2 humbuckers switched to both inner poles, also both outer poles, for the best of both worlds.

Going to the neck humbucker, this has nothing to do with the the topic of splitting, but Lindsey Buckingham found that his entire LP humbucker sounded a little sweeter by turning it around, and I agree. Screw poles getting less vibration & distortion, & slug poles w/cover positioned where the screw coil was. Just by flipping the pup, not the wires or anything else. He found a little sweeter spot towards the center.

Regarding 22 fret guitars, it seems that the best spot for a pickup, or for coil 1 of a humbucker is right where the 24th fret would be, if there was a 24th fret. There's obviously a neat harmonic at the "imaginary" 24th fret, and a pickup can capitalize on the vibrational amplitude at that spot, which is just right, all of the time while playing (I'm not suggesting we play harmonics where there are no frets). I think the vibration is ideal and is optimized at that spot, but it can get loud up there, which is why Lindsey (Fleetwood Mac) broke tradition, and sounded different. Well, that's my take on the mechanics of string vibration, pickup locations, pole heights and doing the splits. Mechanics, physics or fine tuning? Whatever ... I'm referring to location, location, location which is the real estate on our guitars, not the electronics inside. Strat man Dwight

4/13/2005 1:53 PM
Jesse Greenawalt	That all makes sense, but I also realize that the biggest effect with the neck pickup position is on open strings & chords. Once you go up several frets the difference becomes nearly moot, IMO. I also don't think the bridge angle is that big a deal. It looks like hell with a bucker anyway (remember all those Kramers?), so once I'm already compromising my strat sound by using a bucker (even something like an SK dualtone), the further difference isn't a biggie to me. Besides, the biggest difference to my ear there is to the low strings, which on the inner coil aren't far from where they are on a slanted single.

4/13/2005 1:53 PM

Jesse Greenawalt

That all makes sense, but I also realize that the biggest effect with the neck pickup position is on open strings & chords. Once you go up several frets the difference becomes nearly moot, IMO.

I also don't think the bridge angle is that big a deal. It looks like hell with a bucker anyway (remember all those Kramers?), so once I'm already compromising my strat sound by using a bucker (even something like an SK dualtone), the further difference isn't a biggie to me. Besides, the biggest difference to my ear there is to the low strings, which on the inner coil aren't far from where they are on a slanted single.

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