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|8/17/2005 5:06 AM|
|pierre debs||more news from the Jew hating anti-semite Nazi.|
I guess it is okay for zionists to envoke the holocaust.
boy those guys must be real self-hating jews.
I am only a jew hating anti-semite nazi.
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|8/17/2005 7:58 AM|
Pierre, when you croak, may your ashes be mixed into the paint on a synagogue's walls. You'll spend eternity in your least favorite place.
A fitting end, IMHO.
|8/17/2005 12:04 PM|
Not sure where your opening sentence fits into all of this, but there are far too many folks whose only knowledge of Israel comes from AFTER the 7-day war. It would have been nice if all those who attacked Israel unsuccessfully at that time (and again in 1973) would have said "Sorry, it was a stupid error on our part. Just forget about it. We'll take our mortars and tanks away, and just go abou our business." and gone back to ignoring Israel. Unfortunately they kept the attack up on virtually all fronts, often using Palestinians as their pawns, and Israel's only recourse was to secure the regions from where attacks were launched so as to prevent them.
Well, that was the plan, anyways. As Israel learned, and as the US is learning in Iraq, an army patrol is not quite the same thing as a police force, and people respond to each very differently. You can't establish local policing of any strength under those circumstances, and people just despise the army (who are not exactly trained to maintain public relations in the first place).
Fast forward 35 years or so, and you have a generation, in Israel and abroad, that grew up thinking this land was somehow *supposed* to be part of Israel, and was inadvertently neglected during the 1948 creation of the state. Ramp up those expectations with transplanted religious zealots from the US who mistook their exported (but domestically acquired) beliefs in "Manifest Destiny" for some sort of biblically justified ultimate reality, and you have a problem. Ariel Sharon and his cohort, used immigrants as a means of trying to establish sovereignty (via demographic presence) in the occupied lands as those areas gradually transformed themselves from places that had to be temporarily secured for security reasons to areas that just sort of "felt" like Israel, and became referred to by those subsequent generations as "greater Israel" (insert facial wince here).
The various land and subsidy handouts to immigrants, whether those fleeing a more repressive Russia/USSR of the 70's, those fleeing both hunger and discrimination in Ethiopia, or less hospitable regions of North Africa, helped to attract Jewish refugees to a country that felt itself in a life and death demographic struggle (justifiably so,when you consider relative birth rates). Certainly attracting people to the country was a reasonable strategy for maintaining enough of a Jewish presence that there could continue to be a place in the world where trying to live as a Jew was congruent with the culture and not dissonant with it (something all cultural minorities around the world deserve), but situating them in the occupied territories strikes me as being almost as Machiavellian a gesture on the part of the Israeli government, as leaving Palestinians in squalor, or subsidizing their revolt, was on the part of the various countries surrounding Israel, like Jordan, Iraq, Iran, and Eqypt, and for a time the Soviet Union.
Thankfully, Ariel Sharon appears to be finally doing the right thing (in spite of objection from his party colleagues and many who voted for him) as his swan song, but for those folks who had built lives and homes in the Gaza for 10 years, under the mistaken assumption they would be staying there, it comes a little uncomfortably late in the game for them.
If Haffez Assad had moved his big guns from the Golan Heights in the 70's. If Hosni Mubarak had been able to foster moderation in Gaza (and local) Muslims. If King Hussein had spent a little more cash on refugee camps instead of horses. If Saddam Hussein hadn't offered huge cash awards to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers. If Yassir Arafat hadn't applauded Iraqi missiles being fired at Israel in the Gulf War. If the House of Saud had been a little bit more obsessed with peace and inter-cultural compromise than revenge or wealth or retaining power. Well, Israel's behaviour would have likely been quite different over the past few decades, and today's events in the Gaza would have been VERY different.
As dubious as their judgment has been (and will likely continue to be, after all they have to get voted in too), I'll say this for the Israeli government. They remain probably the only country in a position of power (we're not talking about countries surrendering after a war), who has twice given up land to be able to secure peace with neighbours who had consistently demonstrated themselves to not be entirely worthy of trust. In amongst all that stupidity and political clumsiness and even false pride, there is a germ of real statesmanship and courage.
Hmmm. Does that make me an anti-Zionist self-loathing Jew?
|8/17/2005 2:04 PM|
I know you are not a anti-zionist, self loathing jew. and you know I am not the person the title of this thread reads. I beg to differ, however, in your assessment of how the neighbooring countries COULD have helped the Palestinians. This stems from my inability to accept the premise upon which Israel was established and in my reading of it all, the premise being that god promised them this land. What should have the surrounding arab contries have done? Just tell the Palestinians to forget that they lived on their land for thousands of years? All Palestinians are now no longer Palestinians, but nationals of which ever country they happened to have escaped into? What is really disgusting to me is the brooklyn jews who have settled on this land and now claim thaht sharon is a nazi and creating the end of israel. Plus the constant media coverage of the plight of these poor settler who are being handled with "as much care and understanding as humanly possible" Whilst the IDF has treated the palestinians as pigs. Israel exists....at the expense of another people. And over and over, the Palestinians are the rats, the pigs the cancer that needs to be "liquidated." Sorry, although I respect peoples right to believe in whatever god they wish, I do not accept behaviours of one people who say their god has given them the right to destroy another persons well being. Be it Christian, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist or Zoroastrian. The zionist started this mess, not the palestinians, not the jordanians, not the saudis and certainly not god. You are a learned man, but sometimes to verbose. I am also a learned man and sometimes to tright. In both cases, misunderstandings are increased in possibility.
|8/17/2005 2:44 PM|
I don't know how much the God-given thing enters into it. The fact remains that at the end of WWII there were huge numbers of displaced Jews who were not particularly wanted by other "civilized" countries (including my own), who were not especially inclined to remain in the continent where their families had been slaughtered y those they *thought* were their neighbours, and who had a historical connection to the region of Israel. Could there have been other solutions? There were, in fact other solutions suggested at the time which would have situated Jews in some other part of the world, but as it happened, they ended up in Israel. There are some who take the God-promised-me thing a little too literally for my tastes, and no doubt, if they are unable to do so even now, I can't begin to imagine how poorly the western governments of the time anticipated the attitudes and needs of the peoples living in the region of Palestine/Israel. There was likely a sub-optimal strategy for integrating Jewish refugees in the region, and there are plenty of people since who have misinterpreted what they are entitled to in the region...on both sides.
I don't condone the attitudes and expectations of the about-to-be-displaced settlers, but I undersatdn them. Of course, its an all too familiar aspect of human nature that when Sharon stands around and lets the Lebanese Phalangists march into Sabra and Chatila and slaughter innocents, that his hands were "clean", but when he forces his "own" people to give up the homes that they thought they were entitled to, he's a "nazi". Whether access to pornography and MP3's, being forced to smoke outside restaurants (instead of inside), being forced to wear motorcycle or bicycle helmets, or having to show more I.D. at the border, isn't it just like Westerners to make a stink about human rights only when it inconveniences them?
Your analysis of the attitudes of certain extremist "born-again" Israelis as being somehow representative of the rest of the population, the government, and the diaspora population, is, to be frank, a rather ugly stereotype. Certainly those few who conform to it are a real irritant, and not a whole lot better than some contingents within Hamas IMHO, but they are NOT everybody, any more than those who strap bombs on and saunter onto commuter buses (or worse, those who convince them to do it) are reflective of the broader Palestinian populace.
The two sides will BOTH be there forever, simply because cultures never forget their roots. The question is not about who owns things or about who has a right to this or that, but about how people are going to get along. Few things would please me more than a vibrant economy in an independent and secular Palestinian state, coexisting alongside a vibrant Israeli economy in an indepenent and secular Jewish state (that sounds like an oxymoron doesn't it?). Hell, for that matter, why *could't* there be a peaceful Middle Eastern economic bloc, similar to the E.U., consisting of Everything from Turkey to the Iraq-Pakistan border, Eqypt and Israel included? Why *shouldn't* there be a Palestinian state where they go cross-border shopping in Israel durin major Muslim holidays, and non-religious Jews pop over to Ramallah during Yom Kippur to pick up some fruit and some CD's? What the heck is so wrong about that picture?
|8/17/2005 3:12 PM|
There is nothing wrong with the picture at the end of your last post, nothing. The born again american jews make up a big part of the vocal and powerful in israel, so I do not think it is an ugly stereotype.
My original remark was to point out that every single usage of the holocaust outside of israel is anti-semitic, but usage by anyone in israel is seemingly okay.
This isnīt the first time nazism has been raised by israelis for their own benefit. Is Sharon a nazi? no he isnīt and the equation with what is going on now is degrading to those slaughtered in the holocaust.
I think the "god promised us this land" is a major battle cry, ex post facto the existence of israel.
95% of the palestinians will more than beg to differ with your viewpoint.
|8/17/2005 7:48 PM|
I think the "god promised us this land" is a major battle cry, ex post facto the existence of israel.[/QUOTE]
You can at least see how successful Yahweh has been 5000 years after he has made the promise. Many other nations have founded much more stable states in spite of the fact that God did not promise anything to them.
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