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Vintage threads from the first ten years

Re: Tolls

12/16/2004 12:06 PM
Doug H	Re: Tolls I agree with you Matt. But you can't get people around here to fork over an extra nickel a year on their property taxes for schools, let alone highways. This is the land of "something for nothing" where people are more than willing to help themselves without feeling obligated to make any contributions or sacrifices of their own. Since the majority of people in this area are not willing to think past their next paycheck (or next six-pack...) you end up with a much more wasteful and inefficient means for funding road maintenance. I like the road and find the electronic payment system pretty convenient so it doesn't really bother me personally. But I do understand your point. Twenty years or so ago "controlled growth" was a political hot-button issue. You heard about it in every election. Nowadays, you rarely hear about it at all. Yet everyone whines about, lo and behold, all the terrible traffic-related deaths on the major highways. And the worst spots are where the development has gone unchecked, without improving the supporting infrastructure. It's a joke... Doug

12/16/2004 12:06 PM

Doug H

Re: Tolls

I agree with you Matt. But you can't get people around here to fork over an extra nickel a year on their property taxes for schools, let alone highways. This is the land of "something for nothing" where people are more than willing to help themselves without feeling obligated to make any contributions or sacrifices of their own. Since the majority of people in this area are not willing to think past their next paycheck (or next six-pack...) you end up with a much more wasteful and inefficient means for funding road maintenance.

I like the road and find the electronic payment system pretty convenient so it doesn't really bother me personally. But I do understand your point. Twenty years or so ago "controlled growth" was a political hot-button issue. You heard about it in every election. Nowadays, you rarely hear about it at all. Yet everyone whines about, lo and behold, all the terrible traffic-related deaths on the major highways. And the worst spots are where the development has gone unchecked, without improving the supporting infrastructure. It's a joke...

Doug

12/16/2004 2:52 PM
Darin	Amen Doug! Shortsightedness is extremely common these days. Americans are more worried about what they want than how they would pay for that want.

12/16/2004 10:04 PM
Enzo	I would certainly not claim that all toll road instances are well reasoned, but in the case of the roads across Ohio, the traffic from CHicago heading to New York across Ohio far exceeds the amount of Ohioans coming to those other states, so it is not even close to being a wash. Most toll roads are high volume roads, and when I have seen toll roads paralleling toll roads, the toll road usually offers fewed exits, so traffic moves more smoothly and freely for that reason. Exits introduce motorists speeding up and slowing down trying to move into and out of lanes of traffic. This slows things down. In some cities I manage to get to like Washington DC and CHicago, there are also express lanes that serve a similar purpose. If you are not getting off anyplace close, the expres lanes off smoother sailing at the cost of fewer places to get on/off. ANy toll road can have a buildup at the booth, but free roads can get backed up and clogged as well.

12/16/2004 10:04 PM

Enzo

I would certainly not claim that all toll road instances are well reasoned, but in the case of the roads across Ohio, the traffic from CHicago heading to New York across Ohio far exceeds the amount of Ohioans coming to those other states, so it is not even close to being a wash.

Most toll roads are high volume roads, and when I have seen toll roads paralleling toll roads, the toll road usually offers fewed exits, so traffic moves more smoothly and freely for that reason. Exits introduce motorists speeding up and slowing down trying to move into and out of lanes of traffic. This slows things down. In some cities I manage to get to like Washington DC and CHicago, there are also express lanes that serve a similar purpose. If you are not getting off anyplace close, the expres lanes off smoother sailing at the cost of fewer places to get on/off.

ANy toll road can have a buildup at the booth, but free roads can get backed up and clogged as well.

12/17/2004 2:09 PM
MBSetzer	To operate for the common good, a government or taxing authority most fundamentally NEEDS to maintain a financial surplus. Otherwise all their efforts work effectively for the common detriment, and the more effort, the worse things become. Financial things at least. Everybody knows that an unchecked deficit is a direct path to bankruptcy, OTOH a significant surplus is essential for capital leverage. Capital leverage wouldn't offer much benefit unless there were working capital markets which are mature enough to provide capital growth commensurate with the size of the surpluses. However, when a capitalist-based economy matures in the direction where it becomes skewed so much in favor of capital relative to production, such as when pure financial deals outperform traditional value-added production, then the concept of a deficit-running authority continuing to levy upon production workers can be seen as purely criminal. IOW, if the idiots you are paying taxes to were not criminals, they would have run a surplus, wisely invested the funds generations ago, and today be reaping the benefits of more yearly revenue from the investments than could be ever be extracted from poor citizens. Or average citizens or upper-middle-class or anything. Obviating the need to continue the levies upon the citizens, for any worthwhile initiative that is sensible to fund by taxes to begin with. As for other tax-funded operations, if they are not worthwhile or sensible to fund by taxes to begin with, duh. Anyway, in Fla. the turnpike was established by the state as a toll road, by agreement with the citizens that the toll would be removed after the costs of construction were recovered. When this milestone was reached in the '70's the state broke the agreement by failing to eliminate tolls. There is no complex explanation, its just typical crooked government. In Texas, toll roads are just beginning to appear more often, and it appears purely political. Obviously there has been enough wealth in Texas for decades so that these new projects could be taken in stride using the same taxpayer money as non-toll roads, but we know the politicans have wasted and are continuing to waste that revenue stream. So the expected traditional method of funding is fully spoken for by those most heavily involved in working toward the common detriment, and they are right in the middle of this most ambitious effort As if things didn't go from bad to worse on their own Meanwhile nothing is going to get done unless people do it themselves, rather than wait their turn until after full detriment is achieved or perhaps maybe a little common good starts being pursued again, local toll-road authorities have sprung up. Mainly to serve the transportation needs of the growing suburbs, the tolls do serve to fund the construction & maintenance, but we have seen that more importantly the rate is set to control traffic levels. The suburbanites want uncongested access to the big city (and other suburbs) and are prepared to pay more per voyage, whatever it takes to keep the participation by the unwashed masses to a tolerable level. At first this may not seem so bad to have those that use the new road be the ones that pay for it, but when the big picture shows how the much-needed non-toll roads will now be delayed or never built, it can be seen as just another creative technique the powers-that-be are using to further their exclusive agenda without having any benefit trickle down to anyone else. Mike

12/17/2004 2:09 PM

MBSetzer

To operate for the common good, a government or *taxing authority* most fundamentally NEEDS to maintain a financial surplus.

Otherwise all their efforts work effectively for the common detriment, and the more effort, the worse things become. Financial things at least.

Everybody knows that an unchecked deficit is a direct path to bankruptcy, OTOH a significant surplus is essential for capital leverage.

Capital leverage wouldn't offer much benefit unless there were working capital markets which are mature enough to provide capital growth commensurate with the size of the surpluses.

However, when a capitalist-based economy matures in the direction where it becomes skewed so much in favor of capital relative to production, such as when pure financial deals outperform traditional value-added production, then the concept of a deficit-running authority continuing to levy upon production workers can be seen as purely criminal.

IOW, if the idiots you are paying taxes to were not criminals, they would have run a surplus, wisely invested the funds generations ago, and today be reaping the benefits of more yearly revenue from the investments than could be ever be extracted from poor citizens. Or average citizens or upper-middle-class or anything. Obviating the need to continue the levies upon the citizens, for any worthwhile initiative that is sensible to fund by taxes to begin with.

As for other tax-funded operations, if they are not worthwhile or sensible to fund by taxes to begin with, duh.

Anyway, in Fla. the turnpike was established by the state as a toll road, by agreement with the citizens that the toll would be removed after the costs of construction were recovered. When this milestone was reached in the '70's the state broke the agreement by failing to eliminate tolls. There is no complex explanation, its just typical crooked government.

In Texas, toll roads are just beginning to appear more often, and it appears purely political. Obviously there has been enough wealth in Texas for decades so that these new projects could be taken in stride using the same taxpayer money as non-toll roads, but we know the politicans have wasted and are continuing to waste that revenue stream. So the expected traditional method of funding is fully spoken for by those most heavily involved in working toward the common detriment, and they are right in the middle of this most ambitious effort

As if things didn't go from bad to worse on their own

Meanwhile nothing is going to get done unless people do it themselves, rather than wait their turn until after full detriment is achieved or perhaps maybe a little common good starts being pursued again, local toll-road authorities have sprung up. Mainly to serve the transportation needs of the growing suburbs, the tolls do serve to fund the construction & maintenance, but we have seen that more importantly the rate is set to control traffic levels. The suburbanites want uncongested access to the big city (and other suburbs) and are prepared to pay more per voyage, whatever it takes to keep the participation by the unwashed masses to a tolerable level.

At first this may not seem so bad to have those that use the new road be the ones that pay for it, but when the big picture shows how the much-needed non-toll roads will now be delayed or never built, it can be seen as just another creative technique the powers-that-be are using to further their exclusive agenda without having any benefit trickle down to anyone else.

Mike

12/17/2004 2:09 PM
Darin	HMMM! Trickle down economics eh! Works like a charm to defraud taxpayers.

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