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Tolls

12/15/2004 9:44 AM
Matt	Tolls I don't understand tolls (as in, toll roads). We go through the trouble of building an expressway (which costs millions if not billions), then we go through the extra trouble of building these little shacks every few miles so I have to stop to pay a friggin' quarter? Then those little shacks have to be manned, maintained, refurbed, and someone has to collect all the quarters and count them (I know a machine does that, which means they have to buy and maintain machines to count them). Could we possibly have come up with a MORE wasteful way to do this? And we only do it to certain roads. The roads all around my house might be toll-free yet someone else's house might be surrounded by toll roads. It doesn't seem right that one person who just happens to live in a heavily tolled area should have to pay more than someone who just happens to live in a toll free area. I don't have any kids but I gladly pay taxes for kids to go to school. In fact, I'd gladly pay more for education. It seems there are already plenty of different taxes in existence, couldn't they just increase one or more of them a little bit? Tolls just seem like one of the most idiotic, wasteful things we do. I can make no sense of it. Am I missing something?

12/15/2004 9:44 AM

Matt

Tolls

I don't understand tolls (as in, toll roads). We go through the trouble of building an expressway (which costs millions if not billions), then we go through the extra trouble of building these little shacks every few miles so I have to stop to pay a friggin' quarter? Then those little shacks have to be manned, maintained, refurbed, and someone has to collect all the quarters and count them (I know a machine does that, which means they have to buy and maintain machines to count them). Could we possibly have come up with a MORE wasteful way to do this? And we only do it to certain roads. The roads all around my house might be toll-free yet someone else's house might be surrounded by toll roads. It doesn't seem right that one person who just happens to live in a heavily tolled area should have to pay more than someone who just happens to live in a toll free area. I don't have any kids but I gladly pay taxes for kids to go to school. In fact, I'd gladly pay more for education. It seems there are already plenty of different taxes in existence, couldn't they just increase one or more of them a little bit? Tolls just seem like one of the most idiotic, wasteful things we do. I can make no sense of it. Am I missing something?

12/15/2004 10:09 AM
Darin	Hey Matt, Yeah, tolls suck , but they are in place for a reason. Take for instance the cost just to maintain the roadway itself. I believe a figure I heard a few years back was about $1 million/mile of roadway for asphalt. That's not exactly cheap and figure the number of miles of roadways in a given area, some will be travelled more than others and wear faster. These are the roads that normally end up having tolls. Consider it a use tax. We could raise everyones income taxes to increase governmental budget, and maybe appropriate this money to raod maintenance. However, this is often not the case and the money is used elsewhere. Tollways actually directly take in money to fund road construction and maintenance. A good example in my locale are the bridges stemming across the SF Bay. The Golden Gate bridge has a $5 toll that directly funds its maintenance. It is a constant battle to keep that bridge in shape, and costs boat loads of money to do. You use the bridge, you pay for the use directly. Pretty simple concept really.

12/15/2004 10:09 AM

Darin

Hey Matt,

Yeah, tolls suck , but they are in place for a reason. Take for instance the cost just to maintain the roadway itself. I believe a figure I heard a few years back was about $1 million/mile of roadway for asphalt. That's not exactly cheap and figure the number of miles of roadways in a given area, some will be travelled more than others and wear faster. These are the roads that normally end up having tolls. Consider it a use tax.

We could raise everyones income taxes to increase governmental budget, and maybe appropriate this money to raod maintenance. However, this is often not the case and the money is used elsewhere. Tollways actually directly take in money to fund road construction and maintenance. A good example in my locale are the bridges stemming across the SF Bay. The Golden Gate bridge has a $5 toll that directly funds its maintenance. It is a constant battle to keep that bridge in shape, and costs boat loads of money to do. You use the bridge, you pay for the use directly. Pretty simple concept really.

12/15/2004 10:17 AM
Matt	Thanks for the input Darin. But even the people that never travel that bridge reap benefits from it's existence. All should pay for the maintenance of that bridge, just as all pay for the maintenance of the vast majority of the other roads/bridges. That's part of my point, that the 'use tax' hat doesn't hold water in this case.

12/15/2004 11:45 AM
sean genereaux	But even the people that never travel that bridge reap benefits from it's existence. Apart from the near impossibility of trying to pass an 'Iconic Tax', the benefits you speak of a largely intangeble and consequently generate little to nothing in the way of wear and tear. A direct usage tax isn't the Best solution, but in alot of cases, merely the better option. And certainly in the case of toll roads, such a scenario generates expediture as well as revenue (toll booths, collectors, admin) but it does help to prevent misappropriation towards other community needs, e.g; county/city employee salary adjusments, school funding, etc. To paraphrase Churchill: It's not the best way, it's the best way we've got. Sean p.s. I live in the northwest and we have no toll roads/bridges, so I don't encounter them frequently enough to share your agitation. Feel free to disregard.

12/15/2004 11:45 AM

sean genereaux

But even the people that never travel that bridge reap benefits from it's existence.

Apart from the near impossibility of trying to pass an 'Iconic Tax', the benefits you speak of a largely intangeble and consequently generate little to nothing in the way of wear and tear. A direct usage tax isn't the Best solution, but in alot of cases, merely the better option. And certainly in the case of toll roads, such a scenario generates expediture as well as revenue (toll booths, collectors, admin) but it does help to prevent misappropriation towards other community needs, e.g; county/city employee salary adjusments, school funding, etc.
To paraphrase Churchill: It's not the best way, it's the best way we've got.

Sean

p.s. I live in the northwest and we have no toll roads/bridges, so I don't encounter them frequently enough to share your agitation. Feel free to disregard.

12/15/2004 12:04 PM
Matt	Northwest huh? I'll look into moving out there! ;^) I guess part of my problem with it is this: IF it is the best way we've got, not enough thought could possibly have been put into it. Since the NW has found a way around it, it would seem that it isn't the best way we've got. Somehow we manage to build/maintain almost all the roads and bridges using 'existing' tax methods yet 'this road' and 'that road' have tolls. It just doesn't make sense. Consider the case where ALL roads were toll roads (which would actually be MORE fair, but even more idiotic). I pay taxes for the expressway across town that I never use and I think that people across town should pay taxes for my nearby expressway that they never use. An even simpler concept. Sometimes we complain that the misuse/waste of tax dollars is a big problem. This is a massive waste of tax dollars.

12/15/2004 12:04 PM

Matt

Northwest huh? I'll look into moving out there! ;^) I guess part of my problem with it is this: IF it is the best way we've got, not enough thought could possibly have been put into it. Since the NW has found a way around it, it would seem that it isn't the best way we've got. Somehow we manage to build/maintain almost all the roads and bridges using 'existing' tax methods yet 'this road' and 'that road' have tolls. It just doesn't make sense. Consider the case where ALL roads were toll roads (which would actually be MORE fair, but even more idiotic). I pay taxes for the expressway across town that I never use and I think that people across town should pay taxes for my nearby expressway that they never use. An even simpler concept.

Sometimes we complain that the misuse/waste of tax dollars is a big problem. This is a massive waste of tax dollars.

12/15/2004 12:58 PM
Darin	I understand your pain, but can you suggest a better method? You can certainly tax for it, but that is a very hard sell whether it's property tax, sales tax, gas tax, whatever type of tax increase you may choose. There is always going to be people who will complain about it in any form. Those who argue the loudest are the ones who will be affected the most, eg. homeowner who uses public transit having to pay increased property tax for improvements to roads. While this home owner may not own a car, and only uses public transit, they are not immune to taxes. They can certainly influence tax policy by contacting their elected officials and voicing their opinions, but this option is only partially effective. One thing to remember is that everyone wants lower taxes, but doesn't want to give up anything in return. This only works when our government operates with a budget surplus. It's hard to give back money you don't have, unless you enact policies like the Bush administration. His first tax cut threw our budget surplus out the window, and infact, we had to borrow money to send out all those $300+ checks to every american. Now we have to pay interest on this borrowed money, and put our selves into a worse financial position. Now stack on a few more tax cuts and where are we? We have the largest deficit in history and Bush wants to continue tax relief. Well, the money has got to come from somewhere, and the states alone are not going to be able to increase revenues without things like road tolls, sales tax increases, vehicle registration fee hikes, etc. You also should figure in the increased numbers of unemployed americans, which decreases tax revenues yet increases burden. We are not in very good economic shape regardless of what our President says. If you don't like your road tolls, write your local officials with some suggestions. You can also speak your mind by how you vote, but you'll have to wait for the next election.

12/15/2004 12:58 PM

Darin

I understand your pain, but can you suggest a better method?

You can certainly tax for it, but that is a very hard sell whether it's property tax, sales tax, gas tax, whatever type of tax increase you may choose. There is always going to be people who will complain about it in any form. Those who argue the loudest are the ones who will be affected the most, eg. homeowner who uses public transit having to pay increased property tax for improvements to roads. While this home owner may not own a car, and only uses public transit, they are not immune to taxes. They can certainly influence tax policy by contacting their elected officials and voicing their opinions, but this option is only partially effective.

One thing to remember is that everyone wants lower taxes, but doesn't want to give up anything in return. This only works when our government operates with a budget surplus. It's hard to give back money you don't have, unless you enact policies like the Bush administration. His first tax cut threw our budget surplus out the window, and infact, we had to borrow money to send out all those $300+ checks to every american. Now we have to pay interest on this borrowed money, and put our selves into a worse financial position. Now stack on a few more tax cuts and where are we? We have the largest deficit in history and Bush wants to continue tax relief. Well, the money has got to come from somewhere, and the states alone are not going to be able to increase revenues without things like road tolls, sales tax increases, vehicle registration fee hikes, etc. You also should figure in the increased numbers of unemployed americans, which decreases tax revenues yet increases burden. We are not in very good economic shape regardless of what our President says.

If you don't like your road tolls, write your local officials with some suggestions. You can also speak your mind by how you vote, but you'll have to wait for the next election.

12/15/2004 2:45 PM
SpeedRacer	re: taxes/deficit - it's even worse than that bc at the local level idiotic programs like "no child left behind" (a federal mandate which is unfunded - so funds have to be found locally - eg: raise taxes or make other cuts) add parallel tax hikes. The double whammy. Some education policy.. re: tolls. Some tolls are what they appear to be - support for that roadway or bridge, tunnel, etc. Others are complete BS. It's important to press your local reps and see what they are actually for. Make an issue out of them if needbe. Example: where I used to live in NY, there was a toll on Rt 87 that was put in originally under the guise of paying for the roadway. That's fine w/me. The folks that use it pay for it.. makes perfect sense. When the roadway was paid for, they were supposed to remove the toll plaza. Well, I don't have to tell anyone what happened when it was time to remove the toll plaza.. they'd gotten used to the income and it was being diverted to pay for canals in other parts of the state and all sorts of other things which had nothing to do with the mandate which created the toll. So, people got pissed, got mobilized and got the thing removed as had been promised. It can be done.

12/15/2004 2:45 PM

SpeedRacer

re: taxes/deficit - it's even worse than that bc at the local level idiotic programs like "no child left behind" (a federal mandate which is *unfunded* - so funds have to be found locally - eg: raise taxes or make other cuts) add parallel tax hikes. The double whammy. Some education policy..

re: tolls. Some tolls are what they appear to be - support for that roadway or bridge, tunnel, etc. Others are complete BS. It's important to press your local reps and see what they are actually for. Make an issue out of them if needbe. Example: where I used to live in NY, there was a toll on Rt 87 that was put in originally under the guise of paying for the roadway. That's fine w/me. The folks that use it pay for it.. makes perfect sense. When the roadway was paid for, they were supposed to remove the toll plaza. Well, I don't have to tell anyone what happened when it was time to remove the toll plaza.. they'd gotten used to the income and it was being diverted to pay for canals in other parts of the state and all sorts of other things which had nothing to do with the mandate which created the toll. So, people got pissed, got mobilized and got the thing removed as had been promised.
It can be done.

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