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Vintage threads from the first ten years

Make that fender sound warm

11/8/2005 10:18 PM
Peter	Make that fender sound warm Hi Guys Just stumbled on this "Products: Cryo Valves DEEP CYROGENTIC TREATMENT The process involves taking the vacuum tubes and freezing them down to -312 f and soaking these for a minimum of 12 hours. Then the temp is held at this low level for 24 hours. The vacuum tubes are then slowly brought up to normal levels over the next 12 hours. Metals respond very well to deep cryogenic process. The reasons are as follows. During the cooling or solidification phase of the manufacturing process, molecules are trapped in a haphazard pattern. This is down to stress caused in the bending and welding of the anode plate material.. This random placement causes obstacles for electrons and when encountered this interference can cause noise, slow down electron flow and sound deteriation affecting the quality of the sound of the vacuum tube. At very cold temperatures (below -312°F), the molecules will align in a more uniform, compact structure through the removal of kinetic energy. When the material is returned to ambient temperature, this new uniform, compact pattern is maintained, Thus changing the structure of the nickel permanently. This process makes a permanent change and the benefits do not deteriorate over time or upon return to operating temperature, it changes the whole way the vacuum tube performs. The biggest benefits I have found has been a dramatic improvement in dymanic range. Bass response has been clearer with reduction in microphonics. The really most starling fact as been how the valve operates under saturated and overdriven conditions. This has made some of the more basic Fender amps sound fuller and warmer." http://www.watfordvalves.com/products.asp?id=10 What a fool Ive been trying to upgrade capacitors etc in search of the holy grail.... Hope the above doesn't infringe copyright as I have included the source... Must get a cyrogenic tank - meantime no more ice cream for the family I'm taking over the freezer Cheers Peter

11/8/2005 10:18 PM

Peter

Make that fender sound warm

Hi Guys
Just stumbled on this
"Products: Cryo Valves

DEEP CYROGENTIC TREATMENT The process involves taking the vacuum tubes and freezing them down to -312 f and soaking these for a minimum of 12 hours. Then the temp is held at this low level for 24 hours. The vacuum tubes are then slowly brought up to normal levels over the next 12 hours. Metals respond very well to deep cryogenic process. The reasons are as follows. During the cooling or solidification phase of the manufacturing process, molecules are trapped in a haphazard pattern. This is down to stress caused in the bending and welding of the anode plate material.. This random placement causes obstacles for electrons and when encountered this interference can cause noise, slow down electron flow and sound deteriation affecting the quality of the sound of the vacuum tube. At very cold temperatures (below -312°F), the molecules will align in a more uniform, compact structure through the removal of kinetic energy. When the material is returned to ambient temperature, this new uniform, compact pattern is maintained, Thus changing the structure of the nickel permanently. This process makes a permanent change and the benefits do not deteriorate over time or upon return to operating temperature, it changes the whole way the vacuum tube performs. The biggest benefits I have found has been a dramatic improvement in dymanic range. Bass response has been clearer with reduction in microphonics. The really most starling fact as been how the valve operates under saturated and overdriven conditions. This has made some of the more basic Fender amps sound fuller and warmer."
http://www.watfordvalves.com/products.asp?id=10

What a fool Ive been trying to upgrade capacitors
etc in search of the holy grail....
Hope the above doesn't infringe copyright as I
have included the source...

Must get a cyrogenic tank - meantime no more ice cream for the family I'm taking over the freezer
Cheers
Peter

11/9/2005 2:57 PM
Tom Phillips	Oh Boy! Here we go.

11/9/2005 3:06 PM
Chuck	Peter, People have been freezing steels for a couple of decades. The cryo tube thing is not new either. Probably one of the more recent developements though. But I do know that while carbon steels are structurally benefitted by cryo treatment, there is no such benefit to lower carbon steels, and niether show improved conductivity. So, to take this to the microscope, very little of the metals used in manufacture for tubes is of the high carbon type (with the possible exception of the filament). Not only that, tubes aren't transducers. There are ideally no moving parts in a tube. So structural improvement would be of no use to to the audio properties. And like I mentioned, there is almost no steel in a tube that benefits much from the cryo treatment. Perhaps there would be a minor long term improvement as far as a tubes tendancy to become microphonic. But other than that I can't believe that there is any reason to freeze a tube. I mean, If there is no change electrically, only minor improvements structurally and tubes are not mechanical in function anyway, where is the improvement in tone comming from? It's just more mojo speak. Like special power cables and placing crystals on your hi fi. Chuck

11/9/2005 3:06 PM

Chuck

Peter,

People have been freezing steels for a couple of decades. The cryo tube thing is not new either. Probably one of the more recent developements though. But I do know that while carbon steels are structurally benefitted by cryo treatment, there is no such benefit to lower carbon steels, and niether show improved conductivity. So, to take this to the microscope, very little of the metals used in manufacture for tubes is of the high carbon type (with the possible exception of the filament). Not only that, tubes aren't transducers. There are ideally no moving parts in a tube. So structural improvement would be of no use to to the audio properties. And like I mentioned, there is almost no steel in a tube that benefits much from the cryo treatment. Perhaps there would be a minor long term improvement as far as a tubes tendancy to become microphonic. But other than that I can't believe that there is any reason to freeze a tube. I mean, If there is no change electrically, only minor improvements structurally and tubes are not mechanical in function anyway, where is the improvement in tone comming from? It's just more mojo speak. Like special power cables and placing crystals on your hi fi.

Chuck

11/9/2005 5:32 PM
Peter	Hi Chuck I suspected there were no real improvements gained by freezing a tube.I presume that carbon steels improve at a molecular level although I am puzzled how they can retain their integrity after returning to real world temperatures. I guess structual engineers could point me to a mass of studies and papers on the subject. Back to valves.. I would have thought that if there was anything to gain from cryo-technology in manufacture,the few remaining factories would have implemented the process even if to only create an upmarket production line for the audiophiles with obsessive compulsive disorder or small dicks. I know a guy who swears by "special" power cables in fact I often have to avoid him at the butchers and circle the block a few times as its impossible to have a logical conversation with him. Here in Australia we had a car sold with a "special crystal" in the engine instigated by a racing car driver (his name associated with the car). It wasn't a success and later we found out he had various problems (like giving up alcohol)and stumbled on this idea after absorbing ideas from well meaning Dr's/Gurus. Needless to say Aussies can be a sceptical bunch and like a beer or two..... I digress ....so I presume there is some merit in cryo treated guitar strings although when I tried them my sweat still stuck to them and the beer spilt on them by well meaning fans requesting old Stones songs didn't magically evaporate... I could not really tell the difference even after cleaning them with isopropyl alcohol! Better do some work. Just got a nice old fender twin with the original valves in it... look like RCA's (smallish)but have fender stamped on them.It was bought in 71 ... they dont make them like they used to.... Unfortunatly one is putting on a fireworks display so I'm going to put in a quad set of Svelantas seem to have better structual integrity than others. (maybee the cold weather in St Petersburg helps... no thats a joke...)and I guess I'll have to mess with the bias as usually the existing setup is not suitable for the "new type valves" Thanks for the sensible answer tho chuck.. Peter

11/9/2005 5:32 PM

Peter

Hi Chuck
I suspected there were no real improvements gained by freezing a tube.I presume that carbon steels
improve at a molecular level although I am puzzled
how they can retain their integrity after returning
to real world temperatures.
I guess structual engineers could point me to a mass
of studies and papers on the subject.
Back to valves.. I would have thought that if there was anything to gain from cryo-technology in manufacture,the few remaining factories would have
implemented the process even if to only create an
upmarket production line for the audiophiles with
obsessive compulsive disorder or small dicks.
I know a guy who swears by "special" power cables
in fact I often have to avoid him at the butchers
and circle the block a few times as its impossible
to have a logical conversation with him.
Here in Australia we had a car sold with a "special
crystal" in the engine instigated by a racing car driver (his name associated with the car).
It wasn't a success and later we found out he had
various problems (like giving up alcohol)and stumbled on this idea after absorbing ideas from
well meaning Dr's/Gurus.
Needless to say Aussies can be a sceptical bunch
and like a beer or two.....
I digress ....so I presume there is some merit in
cryo treated guitar strings although when I tried them my sweat still stuck to them and the beer
spilt on them by well meaning fans requesting old
Stones songs didn't magically evaporate...
I could not really tell the difference even after cleaning them with isopropyl alcohol!
Better do some work.
Just got a nice old fender twin with the original
valves in it... look like RCA's (smallish)but have
fender stamped on them.It was bought in 71 ...
they dont make them like they used to....
Unfortunatly one is putting on a fireworks display
so I'm going to put in a quad set of Svelantas
seem to have better structual integrity than others.
(maybee the cold weather in St Petersburg helps...
no thats a joke...)and I guess I'll have to mess with the bias as usually the existing setup is not
suitable for the "new type valves"
Thanks for the sensible answer tho chuck..
Peter

11/10/2005 9:24 PM
Chuck	Actually... Umm... I have rethought my answer. I tend to run with the cynical angle first. And since I know a little about steels and cryogenics (I've made a few knives as well as amps) I prejudged the circumstances. It occured to me after my last post that cryo treating steels does align the "grain" of the steel. I think this is only possible with high carbon steels that actually develop a "grain" pattern. Since there is very little carbon in most of the steels used in tubes we are back to my original post. But... Since the tube is basically moving electrons from the cathode to the plate. Is it possible that the small amount of alignment that occures in the steels inside a tube helps to create a more uniform release and flow of electrons??? I suppose that even a minor change in this area would indeed be audible. But as you mentioned, if there were any real meat to the issue I'm sure some tube MFGs would have already jumped all over it. After all, Cryo treating equipement is very easy to come by. And for that matter I'm not even sure that the "coating" used on the cathodes of most tubes responds at all to cryogenic treatment. In fact I doubt it very much. But in fairness, I don't know for sure. Just rambling off some afterthoughts on the issue. Chuck

11/10/2005 9:24 PM

Chuck

Actually... Umm... I have rethought my answer.

I tend to run with the cynical angle first. And since I know a little about steels and cryogenics (I've made a few knives as well as amps) I prejudged the circumstances.

It occured to me after my last post that cryo treating steels does align the "grain" of the steel. I think this is only possible with high carbon steels that actually develop a "grain" pattern. Since there is very little carbon in most of the steels used in tubes we are back to my original post. But... Since the tube is basically moving electrons from the cathode to the plate. Is it possible that the small amount of alignment that occures in the steels inside a tube helps to create a more uniform release and flow of electrons??? I suppose that even a minor change in this area would indeed be audible. But as you mentioned, if there were any real meat to the issue I'm sure some tube MFGs would have already jumped all over it. After all, Cryo treating equipement is very easy to come by. And for that matter I'm not even sure that the "coating" used on the cathodes of most tubes responds at all to cryogenic treatment. In fact I doubt it very much. But in fairness, I don't know for sure.

Just rambling off some afterthoughts on the issue.

Chuck

11/16/2005 11:28 PM
Dr. Photon	I know next to nothing about cryogenics and metal work, other than LN2 is FUN stuff. I would be pretty sure that this is pretty worthless. I would seriously doubt that freezing the tubes would improve the sound of them (why do none of these tweaks ever make something sound crappier or "colder" hehe). Actually, I would worry a little bit about extra thermal stresses brought upon the tube (especially if the tube is frozen too fast), but I have no clue if these are justified worries or not. Persoanlly,i'll just stick to snatching up cheap-o used amps, and harvesting the perfectly good old tubes from them. RCAs, GE, and Mullard, hurah!

11/16/2005 11:28 PM

Dr. Photon

I know next to nothing about cryogenics and metal work, other than LN2 is *FUN* stuff. I would be pretty sure that this is pretty worthless. I would seriously doubt that freezing the tubes would improve the sound of them (why do none of these tweaks ever make something sound crappier or "colder" hehe). Actually, I would worry a little bit about extra thermal stresses brought upon the tube (especially if the tube is frozen too fast), but I have no clue if these are justified worries or not. Persoanlly,i'll just stick to snatching up cheap-o used amps, and harvesting the perfectly good old tubes from them. RCAs, GE, and Mullard, hurah!

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