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Re: Three Cheers for Jesus!


 
8/7/2003 3:36 AM
anonymous Re: Three Cheers for Jesus!
"History is usually written generations after the event, when clouded fact and memory have all fused into what can be accepted as truth, whether it be so or not."  
 
The New Testament, for example.....
 
8/7/2003 5:15 AM
John Fisher
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[QUOTE]"History is usually written generations after the event, when clouded fact and memory have all fused into what can be accepted as truth, whether it be so or not."  
 
The New Testament, for example.....[/QUOTE]  
 
Unfortunately sad but true!  
 
That's why it is important to get back to what Jesus really had to say and many religions have gotten off the track from the original foundation.  
 
Jesus said: "Wherefore by their fruits shall ye know them".  
 
"If ye know these things happy are you if ye do them"  
"If any man do his will , he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God"  
 
John Fisher
 
8/7/2003 1:07 PM
steve m
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That's why it is important to get back to what Jesus really had to say and many religions have gotten off the track from the original foundation.  
 
Jesus said: "Wherefore by their fruits shall ye know them".  
 
"If ye know these things happy are you if ye do them"  
"If any man do his will , he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God"
 
 
That's the real trick though, isn't it John? Separating the wheat from the chaff. Which words did Jesus actually speak, and which words were put in his mouth by redactors to further their own beliefs? I don't think it is possible to truly know. Especially after 2,000 years.  
 
From the Gospel of Thomas:  
 
(2) Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All."  
 
(3) Jesus said, "If those who lead you say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."  
 
(113) His disciples said to him, "When will the kingdom come?"  
"It will not come by waiting for it. It will not be a matter of saying 'here it is' or 'there it is.' Rather, the kingdom of the father is spread out upon the earth, and men do not see it." [emphasis mine]  
 
The rest may be found here:  
 
http://users.misericordia.edu/davies/thomas/Thomas.html  
 
Steve
 
8/7/2003 2:48 PM
John Fisher
email

Steve,  
quote:
"Which words did Jesus actually speak, and which words were put in his mouth by redactors to further their own beliefs? I don't think it is possible to truly know. Especially after 2,000 years."
 
 
If I buy a gadget and I follow the manual and it works, then I know that the manual is right. When I practice what the bible (particulary the words of Jesus) and it works, then I know it's true.  
I have been so transformed by the words of Jesus from a life of death and destruction to a whole new life in every way. How can I doubt that those words are the truth and are accurate? It has been enough to dedicate my life to it and I can do no other. I have been giving my time, my money my life to Jesus for the last 28 years and I have not regretted it yet. It is much more then just some lame theory or phylosophy that people can endlessly sit around and talk about with no real substance, it has been a passion and a love affare that goes behond my wildest dreams.  
 
The gospel according to "Thomas" has some truth in it but to me there are some strange things mixed in with it.  
For example:  
"reading these gospels closely she show that Thomas offers readers a message of spiritual enlightment. Rather then promoting Jesus as the only light in the world, Thomas taught individuals that "there is a light within each person and it lights up the whole universe"  
 
Hmmm! Sorry but I can't agree with that. It is true that everyone has a bit of the light. Read John 1. But Jesus said: I am the way the truth and the light, no man cometh unto the father but by me"  
 
That's a pretty radical statment but I believe it.  
Thanks!  
John Fisher
 
8/7/2003 4:22 PM
steve m
email

John,  
 
The gospel according to "Thomas" has some truth in it but to me there are some strange things mixed in with it.  
For example:  
"reading these gospels closely she show that Thomas offers readers a message of spiritual enlightment. Rather then promoting Jesus as the only light in the world, Thomas taught individuals that "there is a light within each person and it lights up the whole universe"
 
 
That's because the Gospel of Thomas is a Gnostic gospel. Many of the Gnostic beliefs were at odds with "orthodox" or Catholic Christianity. In fact, salvation in Gnosticism is through Gnosis, or knowing. That is, intuitive knowledge of God. Jesus was not a Savior in the same sense as in Catholicism. In fact, John 20:27 (Doubting Thomas) is a dig against the Gospel of Thomas, for the Gnostics didn't believe in the Ressurection.  
 
Hmmm! Sorry but I can't agree with that. It is true that everyone has a bit of the light. Read John 1. But Jesus said: I am the way the truth and the light, no man cometh unto the father but by me"  
 
You mean John 14:6?:  
 
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."  
 
I have always found this a little strange myself. It seems to be a very important component of modern Christianity but it is only mentioned in one of the Gospels. It seems to me that this important point would have merited at least a mention in the other three Gospels. Why is it that the other three Gospels don't contain this idea?  
 
That's a pretty radical statment but I believe it.  
 
The problem I have with that statement is this: the moment that anyone claims to have cornered the market on truth, knowledge, salvation, etc., you can pretty much bet that they are wrong.  
 
Even the Buddhists say that there are many paths to the Buddha. If your path works for you, and you are happy, then more power to you. However, if anothers path works for him/her, who is to say that that path is wrong? What about the Hindus or Taoists or Moslems in the world. Are they wrong merely because they happened to be born in the wrong place at the wrong time? I don't think so.  
 
Regards,  
 
Steve
 
8/7/2003 6:23 PM
anonymous
Some say that the path to God is like a mountain. God is at the summit and there are many paths that lead there. Others say that God is like the center of a spoked wheel. Following any of the spokes to the center is a valid path to God. I also have a hard time swallowing the "my faith is the only true faith" line of reasoning.
 
8/7/2003 6:34 PM
John Fisher
email

[QUOTE]Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."  
 
I have always found this a little strange myself. It seems to be a very important component of modern Christianity but it is only mentioned in one of the Gospels. It seems to me that this important point would have merited at least a mention in the other three Gospels. Why is it that the other three Gospels don't contain this idea?[/QUOTE]  
 
Well here are a few other places that suggest that idea but there are oodles more:  
Acts 4:12 -- Neither is there Salvation in any other: for there is none other name under Heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.  
Jn.3:36 -- He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.  
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.  
MAT.28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto Me in Heaven and in Earth.  
 
ICO.15:22 As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.  
 
I have to admit that the book of John probably explains it more throughly then any other places:  
 
JOH.3:16,17 For God so loved the World, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not His Son into the World to condemn the World; but that the World through Him might be saved.  
 
JOH.6:48-50 I am that Bread of Life. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from Heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.  
 
[QUOTE]That's a pretty radical statment but I believe it.  
 
The problem I have with that statement is this: the moment that anyone claims to have cornered the market on truth, knowledge, salvation, etc., you can pretty much bet that they are wrong.[/QUOTE]  
 
 
I't not a matter of claiming to have cornered the market on truth. There are many things I can be wrong about and I make lots of mistakes and misjudgment. I will say though that after being on the planet for almost 50 years and being knocked around there are some things that I have found to be true and certain, mainly from bitter experience which is the best but hardest teacher and I have found things that have worked and are true through many tried and proven experiences. But that's not to try and convince anyone but I am just testifying to what I know is the truth. As far as some of the basic things like salvation through Jesus, I am more certain of it then I am of the laws of gravity but that doesn't mean that I think everyone else is gona believe it. These are things you have to hve a convition in your heart about. I was an athiest and i always though when someone tried to preach to me about Jesus that "look, you have your religion, and I have my own philosophy". But in Gods time he changed my life and I had to have the conviction in my heart about it. So there is a truth and there are lies and the vast majority just drift inbeween in the sea of indifference.  
 
quote:
"Even the Buddhists say that there are many paths to the Buddha. If your path works for you, and you are happy, then more power to you. However, if anothers path works for him/her, who is to say that that path is wrong? What about the Hindus or Taoists or Moslems in the world. Are they wrong merely because they happened to be born in the wrong place at the wrong time? I don't think so."
 
 
Thats a common question by many.  
I beleive that even a Buddhist can eventually find Jesus. Maybe not right away but we are just in this one little drop of time now compared to the sea of eternity and I don't believe that everthing they believe is wrong. The same with the Moslems who there are probably many Moslems that are more godly then some of the Chritians but who is to say. God is not going to judge us for what we don't know as truth but he looks a lot on the heart and I am convinced that everyone eventually gets a chance. I hope I am expressing these things correctly.  
Thanks!  
John Fisher
 
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