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Placement of Univibe?

5/17/2004 10:53 AM
Humbucker	Placement of Univibe? I recently bought a Dano Chicken Salad Vibrato(Univibe) and I was experimenting with it by placing it before fuzz and after fuzz, of course this changes the way the effects interact. I was wondering how did Hendrix and Trower do it, was the Univibe before or after distortion?

5/17/2004 12:10 PM
Regis	I have one of those Chicken Salad pedals too, and experimenting just like you. Usually I put it BEFORE the distortion pedal, in my case a TS or SD1. Not sure about Hendrix, but I don't think Trower used a fuzzbox in the old days. He was pretty much a WaWa/Univibe guy. regis

5/17/2004 7:29 PM
Mark Hammer	The broad and shallow cancellations produced by a Univibe, result in slight variations in overall signal amplitude. If placed before any sort of distortion device, it becomes tantamount to playing with the distortion control as the signal pushes the clipping stage a little harder and little softer then a little harder. Because this varies the amount of harmonic content, it produces another kind of subtle filter effect on top of the notches produced by the Univibe itself. Doesn't have to be a stock univibe or a Fuzz Face for that matter. You can stick the Univibe cap values in a Small Stone or other phaser, stick it just ahead of an MXR Distortion+ and get the same thing. Sounds nice, but depends on the distortion setting and sweep speed.

5/17/2004 7:29 PM

Mark Hammer

The broad and shallow cancellations produced by a Univibe, result in slight variations in overall signal amplitude. If placed before any sort of distortion device, it becomes tantamount to playing with the distortion control as the signal pushes the clipping stage a little harder and little softer then a little harder.

Because this varies the amount of harmonic content, it produces another kind of subtle filter effect on top of the notches produced by the Univibe itself. Doesn't have to be a stock univibe or a Fuzz Face for that matter. You can stick the Univibe cap values in a Small Stone or other phaser, stick it just ahead of an MXR Distortion+ and get the same thing. Sounds nice, but depends on the distortion setting and sweep speed.

5/20/2004 2:22 AM
Steve	I like it placed after fuzz, but before overdrive.... Classic examples are Hendrix @ Woodstock (Isabella & Star Spangled Banner), & Band of Gypsys ( Machine Gun) Although he wasn't using an overdrive pedal, the sound of a cranked Marshall gives the warmth that rounds off the edges of the phase shifting. The fuzz before Univibe gives that subtle high end coolness heard on the above mentioned songs. (Hard to put into words, but I know it when I hear it) While most of us can't play at the volumes Hendrix did, adding an overdrive after the Univibe will give similar sounds at more manageable volumes. If you play a fuzz into a Univibe without an overdrive after it, you can get a more hi-fi, Isley Brothers sound as heard on "Who's That Lady?" I'm not sure what Trower used in the early days as far as fuzzes or OD pedals, but I think the classic Trower sound is a Univibe into a distorted Marshall. I'm sure he used fuzzes on some recordings, & other types of modulation on them, too. "Day Of The Eagle" is definitely not a Univibe. I believe it's studio flanging (the real deal done with tape machines) or some other type of electronic flanging. Certain distortions, fuzzes & overdrives all have different results depending on where they are placed in relation to the vibe. Experiment & see what sounds the best to you. The order I personally like is wah-wah, Octavia, fuzz, DS1, Univibe, overdrive(s), echo, into amp. Different pedals find their way in or out of the chain at different times Lately it's been only DS1, Drive-O-Matic, Univibe, 2 screamers, echo & amp. Steve

5/20/2004 2:22 AM

Steve

I like it placed after fuzz, but before overdrive....

Classic examples are Hendrix @ Woodstock (Isabella & Star Spangled Banner), & Band of Gypsys ( Machine Gun) Although he wasn't using an overdrive pedal, the sound of a cranked Marshall gives the warmth that rounds off the edges of the phase shifting. The fuzz before Univibe gives that subtle high end coolness heard on the above mentioned songs. (Hard to put into words, but I know it when I hear it) While most of us can't play at the volumes Hendrix did, adding an overdrive after the Univibe will give similar sounds at more manageable volumes. If you play a fuzz into a Univibe without an overdrive after it, you can get a more hi-fi, Isley Brothers sound as heard on "Who's That Lady?"

I'm not sure what Trower used in the early days as far as fuzzes or OD pedals, but I think the classic Trower sound is a Univibe into a distorted Marshall. I'm sure he used fuzzes on some recordings, & other types of modulation on them, too. "Day Of The Eagle" is definitely not a Univibe. I believe it's studio flanging (the real deal done with tape machines) or some other type of electronic flanging.

Certain distortions, fuzzes & overdrives all have different results depending on where they are placed in relation to the vibe. Experiment & see what sounds the best to you.

The order I personally like is wah-wah, Octavia, fuzz, DS1, Univibe, overdrive(s), echo, into amp. Different pedals find their way in or out of the chain at different times Lately it's been only DS1, Drive-O-Matic, Univibe, 2 screamers, echo & amp.

Steve

5/20/2004 1:59 PM
Mark Hammer	Additive and subtractive synthesis....and fuzz In the old days of synthesis, a fundamental distinction was made between subtractive synthesis - where you start off with a waveform rich in harmonics and "carve" a tone by selectively removing harmonic content with filters, etc - and additive synthesis where sounds/timbres are built by adding in harmonic content to construct waveforms brick by brick. Idealized cases of each much be the old Fairlight and its capacity to set the envelope for each of the harmonics for some fundamental using a lightpen on the screen (as an example of additive), and a Minimoog with its delightful 4-pole lowpass filter as an example of subtractive synthesis. Placement of fuzzes and overdrives, relative to other devices in the signal path, can change them from contributing harmonic content which is added on top of whatever else is there in some dynamic fashion, or contributing harmonic content which is then "carved away" by other means. Situating a Univibe, or other device that varies the effective signal level, AHEAD of a distortion device turns that distortion device into a form of additive synthesis, since the harmonic content comes and goes as the Univibe sweep results in the overdrive being pushed harder and softer. In contrast, situating a fuzz ahead of the Univibe, results in subtractive synthesis of different timbres as the harmonics from the fuzz are selectively removed by the filtering action of the Univibe. Neither is "better" than the other. I simply raise the distinction here because a different understanding of such pedals can help to plan out how one uses them....to better effect (pun intended). Of course what all of this suggests is that position-swapper pedals would be very nice to make/have. That is, something that you plug two pedals into (as well as your in and out patch cables), and stepping on the switch reverses the order from A->B to B->A.

5/20/2004 1:59 PM

Mark Hammer

Additive and subtractive synthesis....and fuzz

In the old days of synthesis, a fundamental distinction was made between subtractive synthesis - where you start off with a waveform rich in harmonics and "carve" a tone by selectively removing harmonic content with filters, etc - and additive synthesis where sounds/timbres are built by adding in harmonic content to construct waveforms brick by brick.

Idealized cases of each much be the old Fairlight and its capacity to set the envelope for each of the harmonics for some fundamental using a lightpen on the screen (as an example of additive), and a Minimoog with its delightful 4-pole lowpass filter as an example of subtractive synthesis.

Placement of fuzzes and overdrives, relative to other devices in the signal path, can change them from contributing harmonic content which is added on top of whatever else is there in some dynamic fashion, or contributing harmonic content which is then "carved away" by other means.

Situating a Univibe, or other device that varies the effective signal level, AHEAD of a distortion device turns that distortion device into a form of additive synthesis, since the harmonic content comes and goes as the Univibe sweep results in the overdrive being pushed harder and softer. In contrast, situating a fuzz ahead of the Univibe, results in *subtractive* synthesis of different timbres as the harmonics from the fuzz are selectively removed by the filtering action of the Univibe.

Neither is "better" than the other. I simply raise the distinction here because a different understanding of such pedals can help to plan out how one uses them....to better effect (pun intended).

Of course what all of this suggests is that position-swapper pedals would be very nice to make/have. That is, something that you plug two pedals into (as well as your in and out patch cables), and stepping on the switch reverses the order from A->B to B->A.

5/20/2004 7:05 PM
Humbucker	Posistion swapper pedals, that would certainly be a great way to get the most mileage out of your stompboxes! I think putting the Univibe before distortion/fuzz gives the most Hendrix-approved tone. When the Univibe is put after distortion/fuzz it has more of a Phaser-like quality IMHO. Like you said Mark, neither one is better than the other but I think I'll put the Univibe before anything else.

5/20/2004 7:05 PM

Humbucker

Posistion swapper pedals, that would certainly be a great way to get the most mileage out of your stompboxes!

I think putting the Univibe before distortion/fuzz gives the most Hendrix-approved tone. When the Univibe is put after distortion/fuzz it has more of a Phaser-like quality IMHO. Like you said Mark, neither one is better than the other but I think I'll put the Univibe before anything else.

5/20/2004 11:15 PM
RedHouse	my 2¢ worth Here's my 2¢ worth on that, specifically the question on how'd Trower do it. I've been able to successfully nail the "Bridge Of Sighs" sound periodically in this way, it's not all pedal but a combo of amp and pedals: Silicon Fuzzface turned up to around 8 (definately not on 10, we need to hear string fundamentals) -into- Univibe input-1 Univibe input-2 -into- "Bright" channel (High input) of a Marshall 1959SLP (basically bypasses the univibe, but while allowing it to input some signal) then... (and here's the big fig newton) Cable from output of Univibe -into- "Normal" channel (low input) of the same Marshall Listening closely to Bridge Of Sighs I've always noticed you can seem hear two signal paths, and certainly Robin may have split his signal (he says he does that when interviewed). But anyway, when Robin hits the E and E5 (6th string) you can hear a mostly-clean heavily-vibed tone, but when Robin hits the E7/G (or whatever you call the doublestop on the 3rd fret 1st and 2nd strings) then you hear more of a singing/raging distortion. Using the above method I was able to blend the clean lows of the low-E string sounds (through the "normal" channel) with the distorted highs in the bright channel of the Marshall and those around said it was the closest to the real deal they'd heared. Note also that using the Fuzzface's "Volume" control is what really drives the "bright" channel input into that raging distortion, not really the Fuzz control. Note that this only works well when you can crank up your Marshall, if you have volume restrictions at all, this is not the ticket. On the other hand, getting the Hendrix "Machine Gun" sound (which is totally different than Trower) is a bit easier as a serial connection: Fuzzface (Fuzz on 9, Guitar on 6 or 7 for intro) -into- Univibe -into- Marshall One really has to mess with the depth control to get the Machine Gun sound right. Interestingly one can get a hint of Jimi's Univibe settings by carefully lstening to the "Band Of Gypsis" DVD soundtrack (the beginning of Machine gun seems to have been edited on the Album mix). On the DVD film footage of those (3) Fillmore concerts, Jimi stops just after his little schpeal about solders fighting, and bends down and adjusts his univibe, on the DVD you can hear the thing swooshing as he sets it just right, then he starts the song.

5/20/2004 11:15 PM

RedHouse

my 2¢ worth

Here's my 2¢ worth on that, specifically the question on how'd Trower do it.

I've been able to successfully nail the "Bridge Of Sighs" sound periodically in this way, it's not all pedal but a combo of amp and pedals:

Silicon Fuzzface turned up to around 8 (definately not on 10, we need to hear string fundamentals)
-into-
Univibe input-1
Univibe input-2
-into-
"Bright" channel (High input) of a Marshall 1959SLP
(basically bypasses the univibe, but while allowing it to input some signal)

then... (and here's the big fig newton)

Cable from output of Univibe
-into-
"Normal" channel (low input) of the same Marshall

Listening closely to Bridge Of Sighs I've always noticed you can seem hear two signal paths, and certainly Robin may have split his signal (he says he does that when interviewed).

But anyway, when Robin hits the E and E5 (6th string) you can hear a mostly-clean heavily-vibed tone, but when Robin hits the E7/G (or whatever you call the doublestop on the 3rd fret 1st and 2nd strings) then you hear more of a singing/raging distortion.

Using the above method I was able to blend the clean lows of the low-E string sounds (through the "normal" channel) with the distorted highs in the bright channel of the Marshall and those around said it was the closest to the real deal they'd heared.

Note also that using the Fuzzface's "Volume" control is what really drives the "bright" channel input into that raging distortion, not really the Fuzz control.

Note that this only works well when you can crank up your Marshall, if you have volume restrictions at all, this is not the ticket.

On the other hand, getting the Hendrix "Machine Gun" sound (which is totally different than Trower) is a bit easier as a serial connection:

Fuzzface (Fuzz on 9, Guitar on 6 or 7 for intro)
-into-
Univibe
-into-
Marshall

One really has to mess with the depth control to get the Machine Gun sound right.

Interestingly one can get a hint of Jimi's Univibe settings by carefully lstening to the "Band Of Gypsis" DVD soundtrack (the beginning of Machine gun seems to have been edited on the Album mix).

On the DVD film footage of those (3) Fillmore concerts, Jimi stops just after his little schpeal about solders fighting, and bends down and adjusts his univibe, on the DVD you can hear the thing swooshing as he sets it just right, then he starts the song.

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