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finer wire=more highs or less highs??

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10/2/2002 2:10 AM
swt	finer wire=more highs or less highs?? If i used 43 instead of 42, with the same resistance, will i get more highs?. Dumb question, but need to know.

10/2/2002 6:56 AM
Andy	Finer wire same resistance less highs, in general terms. Andy

10/2/2002 12:31 PM
SK	"same resistance", that's the key here.. At the same resistance finer wire "chokes" highs, but at the same output (i.e. higher resistance) you get more highs because highs pass to ground more readily than lows thru a given resistance. It's more of just the very top edge of the highs which pass more readily, which can make the pickup more harsh. There's other things going on (skin effect etc)

10/2/2002 3:46 PM

Wait a sec. I'm getting lost here. My understanding is the following:

finer wire = greater resistance per linear foot of wire

finer wire = smaller circumference of coil for same number of turns

more coils closer to polepieces = more high end

Putting these together what you would get is loss of very high end due to greater impedance of a pickup with the same number of turns, but some additional preservation of high mids and low treble due to smaller coil circumference (of course this would depend on the bobbin shape, dimensions, etc.). So, more bite, less sheen. Which is essentially a Rickenbacker pickup, and they use either 43 or 44 from what I understand. Is this way off, or what?

Please verify or refute.

10/2/2002 6:40 PM

"finer wire = smaller circumference of coil for same number of turns

more coils closer to polepieces = more high end"

That I don't know about. Coils closer to the poles never has meant more highs to me. It means "more focused" due to a narrower area being sensed. "focused" is maybe what you mean by "bite"?
What I find happens is some of the "good highs" get choked a bit, and the top edge of the highs can pass (as they pass thru a higher resistance easier, and skin effect) causing more of a mid hump with a harshness/ brittleness on the top edge. This is for pickups with the same output, different resistance.
The harshness can then be removed by scatterwinding by increasing the distributed capacitance which shunts highs to ground (like a long cable with higher capacitance can do) It can also be removed by increasing the pickups capacitance with the addition of grounded metal (cover/baseplate)..(all this also includes the effects of flux line coupling and skin effect in basicly the same way) Now, I'm throwing some theory in with practical experience, but the theory is my weak area...
Now, in the case of the (older)Rics, you're talking lower or same resistance w/ finer wire which actually means fewer turns than a typical pickup. Fewer turns means less capacitance so less loss of highs...
Yeah, it's confusing. Especially since everything interacts. It really can't be simplified that far in application...

10/2/2002 10:27 PM

I am kind of shocked to hear that finer wire has less highs per turn, it hasnt been my experience which is limited to experimenting with wire gauge/ turn count on rick horse shoe pickups.
If this was the case you would think that the pre-war pickups with 38 gauge wire clocking out at around 2.5K would be extremely bright compared to later models with 42 gauge wire around 7 or 8K but thats not the case.
I dont see it, I have wound and re-wound and compared this type of pickup with 38 gauge, 42 and 43 with many different turn counts.
38 gauge at 7000 turns sounds very similar to 42 gauge at 7000 turns, very subtle difference.

What I am missing here? Is it the type of pickup that causing different results?

10/3/2002 12:46 AM

Jason, I mostly work with 42 and 43, next to no experience w/ larger guages.
I think you can only get so bright and the effect becomes aparent w/ 43 and finer. I mostly see it if winding something hot w/ 44 (like a stack bucker or some such) or I wind a really hot pickup w/43. Within typical ranges it is subtle unless I start messing w/ 44, I normally use the largest wire I can use or that is "standard".
Why does it become most apparent at 44? Probably because thats the furthest from what I normally use, but maybe around 43 is the threshold where you actually start choking highs which can be reproduced/heard...I don't know.

I can't speak to horse shoe pickups, but if that's what you're messing with, then you're probably talking about lapsteels/pedal steels. A bit different animal in the sounds produced...If you can fit 7000 turns of 38 on it, it's going to be a way smaller coil w/ 7000 turns of 42 on it... A simple step from 42 to 43 or even 44 doesn't result in nearly the size difference and it's "safer" to reasonably say what's causing the differences you hear...

I also think there's a few other things to consider when discussing this. What exactly is "bright", for most it means a lack of low end or a harshness at the top. Now, I can hear more or less highs in a pickup and say it's "brighter" while retaining the same low end as something compared to. See the diference? I would'nt call the first one "brighter", I'd say it lacked low end...Symantics really.

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