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SC & HB in one (and other questions)

9/20/2002 5:21 AM
Matt	SC & HB in one (and other questions) Hello, I'm currently building my own guitar and want to try my hand at winding my own pickups. The guitar is going to be a 7 string Les Paul. I've got some questions I need to answer though before I go any further (I actually asked a couple of these on the old forum years ago, but have since lost the answers). The pickups are going to have Alnico 5 rods 17mm long x 5mm diameter (I've already got these) with 0.063mm 42PE wire. I want to wind the first coil to about 6000 turns (or whatever normal humbuckers have per coil) and then tap it. I then want to send the tapped lead off to the other coil, while continuing winding with the hot lead for another couple of thousand up to 8200 winds. That way I should be able to wire it so that I can switch between a full humbucker and a full single coil. (the first for distortion the second for clean). The questions are: 1. Will this design result in any imbalances between coil one and coil two in humbucker operation? 2. What is the difference between 42PE and 42AWG? 3. what are the numbers of windings on each coil in medium output humbuckers? 4. Is there a difference in the number of windings used in the bridge and neck pick ups? (for that matter is it a different number of winds in the various positions on a strat?) 5. If I have seperate volume/tone controls for the single coils and the humbuckers should they be 250k and 500k respectively, or 500k for both? Any advice for balancing outputs? 6. If I have two single coils wired in parallel is their combined output higher than when the two are used seperatly? 7. Do I use less windings per coil on a 7 string pick-up due to it's longer bobbin and therefore longer length of wire in each wind? 8.The big question: traditional humbuckers have one set of pole pieces that are all North, and the other all South due to their connection to the bar magnet underneath. They also have shorter coils and a few other differences (wire guage, magnet strength, etc). Will a humbucker that basically consists of two true single coils (with less windings per coil) wired in series RW/RP still sound right (close to an authentic sound or at least just as nice in their own right)? 9. I want to put a cover on my pickups like the chrome style coverings that you see on PAFs for visual appearance reasons. I don't want them to interfere to much with the magnetic field though. The guy at the magnet store suggested that I should perhaps get thin stainless steel for the task. Any thoughts? 10. humbuckers and single coils tend to be different distances from the strings - what's a good way I can attempt to balance that? Thanks for any help.

9/20/2002 5:21 AM

Matt

SC & HB in one (and other questions)

Hello,

I'm currently building my own guitar and want to try my hand at winding my own pickups. The guitar is going to be a 7 string Les Paul. I've got some questions I need to answer though before I go any further (I actually asked a couple of these on the old forum years ago, but have since lost the answers).

The pickups are going to have Alnico 5 rods 17mm long x 5mm diameter (I've already got these) with 0.063mm 42PE wire. I want to wind the first coil to about 6000 turns (or whatever normal humbuckers have per coil) and then tap it. I then want to send the tapped lead off to the other coil, while continuing winding with the hot lead for another couple of thousand up to 8200 winds. That way I should be able to wire it so that I can switch between a full humbucker and a full single coil.
(the first for distortion the second for clean).

The questions are:

1. Will this design result in any imbalances between
coil one and coil two in humbucker operation?

2. What is the difference between 42PE and 42AWG?

3. what are the numbers of windings on each coil in medium output humbuckers?

4. Is there a difference in the number of windings used in the bridge and neck pick ups? (for that matter is it a different number of winds in the various positions on a strat?)

5. If I have seperate volume/tone controls for the single coils and the humbuckers should they be 250k and 500k respectively, or 500k for both? Any advice for balancing outputs?

6. If I have two single coils wired in parallel is their combined output higher than when the two are used seperatly?

7. Do I use less windings per coil on a 7 string pick-up due to it's longer bobbin and therefore longer length of wire in each wind?

8.The big question: traditional humbuckers have one set of pole pieces that are all North, and the other all South due to their connection to the bar magnet underneath. They also have shorter coils and a few other differences (wire guage, magnet strength, etc).
Will a humbucker that basically consists of two true single coils (with less windings per coil) wired in series RW/RP still sound right (close to an authentic sound or at least just as nice in their own right)?

9. I want to put a cover on my pickups like the chrome style coverings that you see on PAFs for visual appearance reasons. I don't want them to interfere to much with the magnetic field though. The guy at the magnet store suggested that I should perhaps get thin stainless steel for the task. Any thoughts?

10. humbuckers and single coils tend to be different distances from the strings - what's a good way I can attempt to balance that?

Thanks for any help.

9/20/2002 5:25 AM
Andy	Well I'll cherry pick a couple of your questions. You will be very hard pressed to get a total of 8,200 turns of wire onto a single humbucker bobbin - if you were experienced you may get 7,500 or so but not much more. The end sound won't be like a true bucker or a true single coil - not bad or crap just different some people like it most don't. Covering it will dumb down the single coil sound you're after, making it less trebly. An average type humbucker will have around 4,500 to 5,000 turns of 42 gauge wire. You have identified a couple of the inheirent problems in that the shape and form of the two types of pickup are very different and this is one of the factors greatly affecting the final sound. Finally for the moment and to let others have a go, you would need less windings on a seven string for the reasons you state. Andy

9/20/2002 5:25 AM

Andy

Well I'll cherry pick a couple of your questions.

You will be very hard pressed to get a total of 8,200 turns of wire onto a single humbucker bobbin - if you were experienced you may get 7,500 or so but not much more.

The end sound won't be like a true bucker or a true single coil - not bad or crap just different some people like it most don't.

Covering it will dumb down the single coil sound you're after, making it less trebly.

An average type humbucker will have around 4,500 to 5,000 turns of 42 gauge wire.

You have identified a couple of the inheirent problems in that the shape and form of the two types of pickup are very different and this is one of the factors greatly affecting the final sound.

Finally for the moment and to let others have a go, you would need less windings on a seven string for the reasons you state.

Andy

9/19/2002 8:22 PM
Mark Hammer	Yep, he's right. Consider that the dimensions of any coil will affect its' inductance, along with number of turns. Dimensions will also impact on DC resistance as well. Since it is a 7-string pickup, and I am assuming a standard string spacing with room for a 7th string, that means the length of each turn will be that much greater. Longer turns means higher DC resistance. This will ultimately load down things after the guitar, and if you have no buffering preamp on board, you'll likely have less high end. That may be what you want, but if it isn't then you'll have to work harder to get it. If you stick on the number of turns you suggested, you may not be able to get it with any amount of work. The other thing which doesn't really get talked abut here is the impact that lengthening each turn has on wire tension and, ultimately, microphonics. Keep in mind that as you wind the wire around the bobbin (or polepieces in the case of SC pickups), wire tension - hence snugness - will be greatest at the turns, and least at the straightaways. The longer the straightaway, the greater the opportunity for windings to have some room to play, to vibrate, and create microphonics. You would need VERY good potting to address this. So here is a compromise to think about... There is more than one pickup on the market which aims for a hum-rejecting effect by using two coils to cover separate sets of strings. The coils are RWRP so that combining them gets you hum-rejection. What is also true, and a perk, is that a coil for 3 strings will be almost 40% turns, and only 60% straightaways; i.e., wire tension will be fabulously snug and microphnic-free. Inductance is different, and because of decreased wire length for the shorter turns, you can stick tons of turns on there without resulting in a coil that is ridiculously high DC impedance. Moreover, lower-impedance coils tend to attract less EM hum from what I gather (though I may well stand corrected on this). Why not split your pickup into two coils?: one for unwound, and one for wound strings. You can wind them in a manner that is suitable and that balances out levels and tone, etc., while still rejecting hum. Since the two coils WILL be different (as they must be with a 3-string and 4-string coil), your hum-rejection may not be perfect, but it will certainly be effective enough for most instances. You could end up with the crispest 7-string on the planet (oops, I'll bet Maestro Gregory has a patent pending on that one).

9/19/2002 8:22 PM

Mark Hammer

Yep, he's right.

Consider that the dimensions of any coil will affect its' inductance, along with number of turns. Dimensions will also impact on DC resistance as well.

Since it is a 7-string pickup, and I am assuming a standard string spacing with room for a 7th string, that means the length of each turn will be that much greater. Longer turns means higher DC resistance. This will ultimately load down things after the guitar, and if you have no buffering preamp on board, you'll likely have less high end. That may be what you want, but if it isn't then you'll have to work harder to get it. If you stick on the number of turns you suggested, you may not be able to get it with any amount of work.

The other thing which doesn't really get talked abut here is the impact that lengthening each turn has on wire tension and, ultimately, microphonics. Keep in mind that as you wind the wire around the bobbin (or polepieces in the case of SC pickups), wire tension - hence snugness - will be greatest at the turns, and least at the straightaways. The longer the straightaway, the greater the opportunity for windings to have some room to play, to vibrate, and create microphonics. You would need VERY good potting to address this.

So here is a compromise to think about...

There is more than one pickup on the market which aims for a hum-rejecting effect by using two coils to cover separate sets of strings. The coils are RWRP so that combining them gets you hum-rejection. What is also true, and a perk, is that a coil for 3 strings will be almost 40% turns, and only 60% straightaways; i.e., wire tension will be fabulously snug and microphnic-free. Inductance is different, and because of decreased wire length for the shorter turns, you can stick tons of turns on there without resulting in a coil that is ridiculously high DC impedance. Moreover, lower-impedance coils tend to attract less EM hum from what I gather (though I may well stand corrected on this).

Why not split your pickup into two coils?: one for unwound, and one for wound strings. You can wind them in a manner that is suitable and that balances out levels and tone, etc., while still rejecting hum. Since the two coils WILL be different (as they must be with a 3-string and 4-string coil), your hum-rejection may not be perfect, but it will certainly be effective enough for most instances. You could end up with the crispest 7-string on the planet (oops, I'll bet Maestro Gregory has a patent pending on that one).

9/20/2002 2:34 AM
Jason Lollar	I have made several 7 string pickups as split sets, a coil for 4 and a coil for 3 strings, works fine but you do get some bleed through from the adjacent string on the other coil. The more you preamp the more bleed through you get. Last time I wound some 12" long pickups I put my wire feed as close to the end of the bobbin as possible, this eliminated most of the whipping that occurs on the long side of the coil, enough that I was pretty impressed.

9/20/2002 2:34 AM

Jason Lollar

I have made several 7 string pickups as split sets, a coil for 4 and a coil for 3 strings, works fine but you do get some bleed through from the adjacent string on the other coil. The more you preamp the more bleed through you get.

Last time I wound some 12" long pickups I put my wire feed as close to the end of the bobbin as possible, this eliminated most of the whipping that occurs on the long side of the coil, enough that I was pretty impressed.

9/20/2002 2:46 AM
Matt	So in other words (correct me if I'm wrong): to get the same amount of high end frequencies in a 7 string pickup you need less windings. This is because if you use the same numbers of windings on a longer bobbin then you end up with more length of wire for the signal to pass through, which results in loss of high end. However as this means that less wire is in contact with the affected section of the magnetic field (that is instead of having 8000 turns = 1600 places that the wire passes through the disrupted magnetic field, you will have 7000 turns = 14000 places that it passes through disrupted magnetic field) the overall output will be lower without preamp boosting. I have another question: If I were to wind a single coil pickup with 8000 turns, but where the first 4000 turns are in the top half of the spool, and the second 4000 in the lower half, would it sound different to a single coil pickup where the windings go from bottom to top to bottom to top for the 8000 winds?

9/20/2002 2:46 AM

Matt

So in other words (correct me if I'm wrong):

to get the same amount of high end frequencies in a 7 string pickup you need less windings. This is because if you use the same numbers of windings on a longer bobbin then you end up with more length of wire for the signal to pass through, which results in loss of high end.

However as this means that less wire is in contact with the affected section of the magnetic field (that is instead of having 8000 turns = 1600 places that the wire passes through the disrupted magnetic field, you will have 7000 turns = 14000 places that it passes through disrupted magnetic field) the overall output will be lower without preamp boosting.

I have another question:
If I were to wind a single coil pickup with 8000 turns, but where the first 4000 turns are in the top half of the spool, and the second 4000 in the lower half, would it sound different to a single coil pickup where the windings go from bottom to top to bottom to top for the 8000 winds?

9/20/2002 7:58 AM
Jason Lollar	Answering some of the other questions then after some more on longer bobbins. 4. Is there a difference in the number of windings used in the bridge and neck pick ups? (for that matter is it a different number of winds in the various positions on a strat?) Many older pickups were wound the same amount for neck or bridge. I imagine most people wind bridge pickups hotter anymore, 500 to 1000 turns more. 6. If I have two single coils wired in parallel is their combined output higher than when the two are used seperatly? No, they will sound clearer and have less punch. Series will add thickness and drive. 9. I want to put a cover on my pickups like the chrome style coverings that you see on PAFs for visual appearance reasons. I don't want them to interfere to much with the magnetic field though. The guy at the magnet store suggested that I should perhaps get thin stainless steel for the task. Any thoughts? If you are scatterwinding with 42 gauge I wouldnt worry about putting a cover on it, do it, you are going to have more top end and harmonic content than what you are used to hearing in run of the mill HB's. "to get the same amount of high end frequencies in a 7 string pickup you need less windings. This is because if you use the same numbers of windings on a longer bobbin then you end up with more length of wire for the signal to pass through, which results in loss of high end." What everone says about higher resistance does have some validity but personally I wouldnt worry much about it on a 7 string if you are scatterwinding unless you are overwinding alot. I make 7,8,10 and 13 string pickups all within 1000 turns of each other without drastic tonal change. I underwind on larger pickups 10" and longer but then they are for a different application usually run straight into a board.

9/20/2002 7:58 AM

Jason Lollar

Answering some of the other questions then after some more on longer bobbins.

4. Is there a difference in the number of windings used in the bridge and neck pick ups? (for that matter is it a different number of winds in the various positions on a strat?)

Many older pickups were wound the same amount for neck or bridge. I imagine most people wind bridge pickups hotter anymore, 500 to 1000 turns more.

6. If I have two single coils wired in parallel is their combined output higher than when the two are used seperatly?

No, they will sound clearer and have less punch. Series will add thickness and drive.

9. I want to put a cover on my pickups like the chrome style coverings that you see on PAFs for visual appearance reasons. I don't want them to interfere to much with the magnetic field though. The guy at the magnet store suggested that I should perhaps get thin stainless steel for the task. Any thoughts?

If you are scatterwinding with 42 gauge I wouldnt worry about putting a cover on it, do it, you are going to have more top end and harmonic content than what you are used to hearing in run of the mill HB's.

"to get the same amount of high end frequencies in a 7 string pickup you need less windings. This is because if you use the same numbers of windings on a longer bobbin then you end up with more length of wire for the signal to pass through, which results in loss of high end."

What everone says about higher resistance does have some validity but personally I wouldnt worry much about it on a 7 string if you are scatterwinding unless you are overwinding alot.
I make 7,8,10 and 13 string pickups all within 1000 turns of each other without drastic tonal change.
I underwind on larger pickups 10" and longer but then they are for a different application usually run straight into a board.

9/23/2002 3:00 AM
Matt	Thanks Jason, I suppose I could always wind it to 8000, try it out and if it's too muddy, take it out and unwind a bit, then try it out again and again until I get the right sound. After what Andy has told me about my current design not sounding like a true HB or SC, I have a variation in mind. Would it sound different if instead of winding a SC in the traditional way where all the early winds are closer to the magnets than the later winds, I instead wind the first half of the coil over the top half of the magnets, and then the next half over the bottom of the magnets? (in other words instead of the first half of the winds being closer to the magnets than the second half, the first quarter and third quarter of the winds are closer to the magnets than the second and fourth quarters.) Thanks again.

9/23/2002 3:00 AM

Matt

Thanks Jason,
I suppose I could always wind it to 8000, try it out and if it's too muddy, take it out and unwind a bit, then try it out again and again until I get the right sound.

After what Andy has told me about my current design not sounding like a true HB or SC, I have a variation in mind.

Would it sound different if instead of winding a SC in the traditional way where all the early winds are closer to the magnets than the later winds, I instead wind the first half of the coil over the top half of the magnets, and then the next half over the bottom of the magnets?
(in other words instead of the first half of the winds being closer to the magnets than the second half, the first quarter and third quarter of the winds are closer to the magnets than the second and fourth quarters.)

Thanks again.

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