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Vintage threads from the first ten years

Pickup "copies" rant

8/31/2002 4:31 PM
SK	Pickup "copies" rant I just gotta say, I don't get why so many are marketing their pickups as "just like..(something vintage).." Well, I do "get it", but it seems to me we are feeding and propogating fallacies and "voodoo". To say a strat pickup is "just like one fender made in '61" means nothing, . If you mean the ideal '61 strat pickup, who's ideal? I've seen all sorts of crap on the web, even to the point of someone stating that they use only the finest tonewood maple for the spacers in thier humbuckers. I think we are doing this because of all the misinformation believed by players and therefore it's what they want to hear. but in the long run we are hurting ourselves, selling fallacies, and limiting market and creativity. I fall prey to this myself at times, for instance I use more vintage cloth braid leads than I do leads with a seperate shield even though I KNOW a seperate shield is better (but I do say so). In fact the "vintage" has become the "standard" because it's what's wanted more often, even when I advise otherwise.... I've got no problem w/ a P-90 "copy" in a humbucker mount, it's not going to be exact so don't sell it as an exact. But if it's good, fairly versatile, and what's wanted. Great! Same for anything else you can come up with. Oh, and how can every pickup winder out there make "the very best pickups made"? Define that for me(rhetorical question, yeah, I get it)... End of rant....

8/31/2002 4:31 PM

Pickup "copies" rant

I just gotta say, I don't get why so many are marketing their pickups as "just like..(something vintage).." Well, I do "get it", but it seems to me we are feeding and propogating fallacies and "voodoo".
To say a strat pickup is "just like one fender made in '61" means nothing, . If you mean the ideal '61 strat pickup, who's ideal?
I've seen all sorts of crap on the web, even to the point of someone stating that they use only the finest tonewood maple for the spacers in thier humbuckers.
I think we are doing this because of all the misinformation believed by players and therefore it's what they want to hear. but in the long run we are hurting ourselves, selling fallacies, and limiting market and creativity.
I fall prey to this myself at times, for instance I use more vintage cloth braid leads than I do leads with a seperate shield even though I KNOW a seperate shield is better (but I do say so). In fact the "vintage" has become the "standard" because it's what's wanted more often, even when I advise otherwise....
I've got no problem w/ a P-90 "copy" in a humbucker mount, it's not going to be exact so don't sell it as an exact. But if it's good, fairly versatile, and what's wanted. Great! Same for anything else you can come up with.

Oh, and how can every pickup winder out there make "the very best pickups made"? Define that for me(rhetorical question, yeah, I get it)...
End of rant....

9/1/2002 11:58 PM
Jason Lollar	Re: Pickup "copies" rant To me Vintage means that you can expect a certain overall tone and output, thats it. I think alot of companies go overboard with small detail and overlook the overall end result. If you are just making copies and using the same type of materials and stucture all you can really achieve is subtle differences in tone, which IS better? I dont know if you have ever seen my advertizing, it says "the best Custom pickups made" Maybe it would be more accurate to say the only place that youll find making custom pickups like these or built to your specs. Custom meaning designed from the ground up. I know about Bartolini and Duncan but they are locked into certain patterns.I could go on and on about it and I would start to sound like a used car salesman which I dont think is appropriate to use a board like this for. One thing I notice is everyone talks about tone but no one talks about how a pickup feels. How senstive is it to changes in picking pressure? How compressed or dynamic it is. how many different tones you can get with different playing techniques. To me thats a big part of it, hearing not only does it sound better but it feels better. Definition is a big factor too that no one ever talks about but sells alot of pickups.

9/1/2002 11:58 PM

Jason Lollar

Re: Pickup "copies" rant

To me Vintage means that you can expect a certain overall tone and output, thats it. I think alot of companies go overboard with small detail and overlook the overall end result.
If you are just making copies and using the same type of materials and stucture all you can really achieve is subtle differences in tone, which IS better?

I dont know if you have ever seen my advertizing, it says
"the best Custom pickups made" Maybe it would be more accurate to say the only place that youll find making custom pickups like these or built to your specs.
Custom meaning designed from the ground up. I know about Bartolini and Duncan but they are locked into certain patterns.I could go on and on about it and I would start to sound like a used car salesman which I dont think is appropriate to use a board like this for.

One thing I notice is everyone talks about tone but no one talks about how a pickup feels. How senstive is it to changes in picking pressure? How compressed or dynamic it is. how many different tones you can get with different playing techniques.
To me thats a big part of it, hearing not only does it sound better but it feels better. Definition is a big factor too that no one ever talks about but sells alot of pickups.

9/2/2002 2:26 AM
SK	Jason, I understand your add, I've seen it. In fact, I think you HAVE to make statements like that to make advertising worthwhile (as in getting business from it) But I think it's a falsehood really. Most of us believe we make the best quality, at least we try. Many of us are willing to make totally custom designs (for a price) and are capable of doing a good job of it. I've done quite a few "one-offs" all with favorable reviews, but I know very well you have more experience at it. In fact, I've sent people your way when contacted for something I know you have more experience with (steels and the like). I've had customers do side by side comparisons of my pickups to pickups from Lindy(similar design) and give mine much better reviews...I do work for local shops who used to use Lindy... And I, like you, make each and every pickup to customer specifications (I think many of us small timers do). I believe I make the best pickups for my customers. I certainly make the best I can; my customers are ALWAYS 100% happy (it's part of my guarantee), and I think the same is probably true of most of us. I believe if we started making "stock models" and they were installed in guitars "factory", then there will be an increase in the number of people who just don't like "our pickups" because they are no longer tailored and they probably don't know anything else about us. It's got to happen...A "stock pickup" just can't suit everyone... Not picking on you, now or originally, but you were the first to reply... Maybe I have an overly idealistic view, maybe we don't all do our very best for our customers, but I like to think otherwise. As for the vintage thing, I HATE that. I swear 90+% of the people have no idea what they are talking about. I've played MANY vintage guitars (not 100's but better than 50. I was in retail at one time, and I still have a small network...) and most of them sounded marginal or ok, of the few that sounded good (to my ears) most sounded good only at one setting. Very few were very good AND versatile. I've pretty much avoided the vintage market for many of those reasons, and the other things in my rant about fallacies and voodoo. I'm glad I have because the ones who do know something about vintage pickups usually know things like exactly how thick the forbon should be, if the edges of the forbon is "sharp" on the ends, exact height for each polepiece etc etc based upon information from a reference which is probably a conglomeration of numbers amassed from several samples. (i.e. they allow nothing for manufacturing tolerances etc even though they've been "averaged into" the reference numbers they're using) But, there IS money there...

9/2/2002 2:26 AM

Jason, I understand your add, I've seen it. In fact, I think you HAVE to make statements like that to make advertising worthwhile (as in getting business from it) But I think it's a falsehood really. Most of us believe we make the best quality, at least we try. Many of us are willing to make totally custom designs (for a price) and are capable of doing a good job of it. I've done quite a few "one-offs" all with favorable reviews, but I know very well you have more experience at it. In fact, I've sent people your way when contacted for something I know you have more experience with (steels and the like).
I've had customers do side by side comparisons of my pickups to pickups from Lindy(similar design) and give mine much better reviews...I do work for local shops who used to use Lindy... And I, like you, make each and every pickup to customer specifications (I think many of us small timers do). I believe I make the best pickups for my customers. I certainly make the best I can; my customers are ALWAYS 100% happy (it's part of my guarantee), and I think the same is probably true of most of us.
I believe if we started making "stock models" and they were installed in guitars "factory", then there will be an increase in the number of people who just don't like "our pickups" because they are no longer tailored and they probably don't know anything else about us. It's got to happen...A "stock pickup" just can't suit everyone...
Not picking on you, now or originally, but you were the first to reply...
Maybe I have an overly idealistic view, maybe we don't all do our very best for our customers, but I like to think otherwise.
As for the vintage thing, I HATE that. I swear 90+% of the people have no idea what they are talking about. I've played MANY vintage guitars (not 100's but better than 50. I was in retail at one time, and I still have a small network...) and most of them sounded marginal or ok, of the few that sounded good (to my ears) most sounded good only at one setting. Very few were very good AND versatile. I've pretty much avoided the vintage market for many of those reasons, and the other things in my rant about fallacies and voodoo. I'm glad I have because the ones who do know something about vintage pickups usually know things like exactly how thick the forbon should be, if the edges of the forbon is "sharp" on the ends, exact height for each polepiece etc etc based upon information from a reference which is probably a conglomeration of numbers amassed from several samples. (i.e. they allow nothing for manufacturing tolerances etc even though they've been "averaged into" the reference numbers they're using) But, there IS money there...

9/2/2002 7:21 AM
Andy	I agree there is a lot of over egging a pickups qualities by most of us. Some of us here make pickups out of interest, some as a hobby, some as a sideline and a few for a living. I'm one of the last group and in order to live I have to sell pickups - I could just put out a list of dc readings, gauss, inductance, capacitance, resonant frequency and even Q, but they alone don't tell anyone how a pickup sounds. This can only be done comparatively - sounds like someone playing whatever. The only real way of finding how a pickup will sound is to actually put it into the players guitar, but first they have to narrow down their search to the most likely contenders thus the comparative, or "sounds like advertising/statements". Individual concepts of what a vintage sound is different, everyone has their own tastes and preferences but we have to judge against something. If not vintage then what? Andy

9/2/2002 7:21 AM

Andy

I agree there is a lot of over egging a pickups qualities by most of us.

Some of us here make pickups out of interest, some as a hobby, some as a sideline and a few for a living.

I'm one of the last group and in order to live I have to sell pickups - I could just put out a list of dc readings, gauss, inductance, capacitance, resonant frequency and even Q, but they alone don't tell anyone how a pickup sounds. This can only be done comparatively - sounds like someone playing whatever.

The only real way of finding how a pickup will sound is to actually put it into the players guitar, but first they have to narrow down their search to the most likely contenders thus the comparative, or "sounds like advertising/statements".

Individual concepts of what a vintage sound is different, everyone has their own tastes and preferences but we have to judge against something.

If not vintage then what?

Andy

9/2/2002 10:14 AM
Tony@Mastertone	I agree with Andy.... I too do this part time at the moment to put food in my wee uns mooth..(feed the kids). I think the whole vintage thing is due to the fact that it is a by gone era that no one can recapture... it had romance and splendour... great memories and great bands. To an extent the car industry is the same... I'm sure that there are many people out there talking right now on some vintage car forum expressing that the 1956 crapmobile had the best power steering pump ever built....in their opinion of course. Just my 2 cents.. Tone

9/2/2002 10:14 AM

Tony@Mastertone

I agree with Andy....

I too do this part time at the moment to put food in my wee uns mooth..(feed the kids). I think the whole vintage thing is due to the fact that it is a by gone era that no one can recapture... it had romance and splendour... great memories and great bands. To an extent the car industry is the same... I'm sure that there are many people out there talking right now on some vintage car forum expressing that the 1956 crapmobile had the best power steering pump ever built....in their opinion of course.

Just my 2 cents..

Tone

9/2/2002 3:01 PM
SK	Still, doesn't make it right...Wanting to "soud like" is fine, but saying it was for any particular reason(s), particularly things like inslation type on the pickup coil wires, is problematic. And I do think we perpetuate this, mostly the "new guys" trying to get started becuase it's easy marketing and they don't necessarily know any different. But in the long run it hurts us... One of the other real problems is it's very hard to figure out what "the difference" really is in pickups we make verses mass production. For me I think it's simply the fact they are made specificly for the customer and thier needs. There's other things that make mine different from mass produced, but not necessarily "better" as that's such a subjective thing in pickups...

9/2/2002 3:01 PM

Still, doesn't make it right...Wanting to "soud like" is fine, but saying it was for any particular reason(s), particularly things like inslation type on the pickup coil wires, is problematic. And I do think we perpetuate this, mostly the "new guys" trying to get started becuase it's easy marketing and they don't necessarily know any different. But in the long run it hurts us... One of the other real problems is it's very hard to figure out what "the difference" really is in pickups we make verses mass production. For me I think it's simply the fact they are made specificly for the customer and thier needs. There's other things that make mine different from mass produced, but not necessarily "better" as that's such a subjective thing in pickups...

9/2/2002 2:50 PM
SK	I agree that specs mean little overall. For tonal references, I like to use style and artist references, something I can listen too or know. Also any particulars like favorite amp as they color sound more than pickups do.

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