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Vintage threads from the first ten years
Why there is no Mideast peace solution
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 4/17/2003 6:15 PM |
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Skreddy |
Why there is no Mideast peace solution There can never be peace in the Mideast unless and until radical Islam is defeated and/or reformed. The Palestinian issue is just an EXCUSE for militant Islamists to continue hostilities. Don't believe me? Consider... 1. the land that Israel occupies is tiny compared to all the other countries around her 2. the oil-rich Arab nations have had DECADES to help all the Palestinians relocate and find new homes in Jordan, Syria, Egypt, and elsewhere. They have done NOTHING for their Palestinian darlings. Why? Because they prefer to USE them as PAWNS in their terror/propaganda campaigns. 3. Israel is never going to go away. Everybody knows that. Their ancient heritage has once again come into their possession, like it or not, and nobody will change that. The fact that people prefer to fight and protest and maintain wars over a situation that they cannot change is evidence that they are stupid (or brainwashed). Strong language? Stupid is as stupid does. If you went to the bar every weekend and got drunk and got your ass kicked, I would call you f*ing stupid because you are ACTING stupid. Similarly, if you protest and do suicide attacks over a situation that cannot be changed, you are a f*ing idiot. The Islamic fundamentalists are defacto a mindless, hate-driven war machine who cannot be reasoned with. There is nothing the United States or Israel can do to placate them. Nothing. They must either be defeated militarily or their ideology must be defeated in the arena of public discourse and popular Arab opinion. Probably both are necessary. The ratio of military-to-ideology remains to be seen. |
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| 4/17/2003 8:53 PM |
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| Mark Hammer | Actually, one of the single biggest impediments to reaching any sort of workable solution has been the structure of the Israeli Knesset (Parliament). It operates via a principle of proportional representation, which means that elected members are not beholding to any riding/district/region. The cutoff for having members elected is something like 3% of the popular vote. As long as you make that cutoff, you get members elected, proportional to what percentage of the popular vote you received. Unfortunately, this means that Israel hasn't really had a majority government since god knows when, and that EVERY single administration, whether hawkish or dovish, has had to cow-tow to fringe elements, be they communist parties or ultra-religious parties in order to form a workable coalition. There have been, at times, up to 17 parties represented in the Knesset from what I understand. That the coalition is workable is separate from whether any initiatives it produces are sensible or coherent. These folks are drowning in democracy. The bottom line is that one should not expect anything truly compelling or plausible from the Israeli government until there is a remarkably persuasive and compelling political leader in any of the major parties who can sweep that party to an overwhelming victory and shut out the little guys. The other alternative is that the nickel-and-dime fringe parties be willing to sign off on a constitutional change that would retain a proportional representation format, but up the minimum vote cutoff to something that would seriously reduce the number of parties, like 6 or even 8%. If you were a member of one of those fringe parties, though, would you EVER consider signing off on that sort of constitutional change, if you knew it likely meant the end of your party? Next time somebody starts spouting off about the virtues of proportional representation, and points to Holland as the shining example, consider Israel as the antidote to that illusion. That is certainly not to place the onus squarely on Israel's lap - certainly the "other side" does not play ball all that cooperatively - but it does explain why although there is superficial alignment between Israeli and American policy in the Middle East, Israeli actions always seem perplexing. Just consider exactly what sort of policy would emerge from the US House of Representatives or the British House of Commons if 6% of its elected members were...oh, I dunno, let's make up something outrageous and defamatory here...a militant 7th Day Adventist party that was indispensable for forming a coalition government, and whose voters you ALWAYS had to woo, whether they were aligned with your party's agenda or not, simply because you couldn't wangle a majority government. |
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| 4/17/2003 11:46 PM |
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| Mark Ingram | Mr. Hammer, What, in your opinion, should Israel do? A web site "refuting" myths about the 1967 war stated that Israel has given back ~93% of the land taken in that war, but the suicide/homicide bombings continue. It appears to me that, on several recent occasions, Israel has stated that it was willing to negotiate on the condition that the bombings stopped. Then someone gets blown up and the cycle starts all over again. Also, if the Arabs are really so adamant to get rid of Israel, why don't they all just gang up on Israel in one massive attack. There is certainly enough oil wealth over there to finance such a venture. I know the argument that the Arabs don't want to provoke the U.S. to action, but I am sure that Russia and China (and France and Germany, perhaps) would be happy to get involved in any action to put the U.S. in her place. It occurs to me that the Israelis and Palestinians are being played against each other like Iran and Iraq in the '80s: each side being given enough to continue the fight but not enough to win. What a drag, I hate it when I become that cynical. 
Mark Ingram |
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| 4/18/2003 12:22 AM |
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| Gil Ayan | On 4/17/2003 11:46 PM, Mark Ingram said:
I am sure there are websites that will be glad to sell you the Brooklyn bridge, Mark.  I guess the effects of ending the occupation will not be known until it actually takes place, right? If and when, that is; to some folks, it's been 35 years and counting. But besides that, the relationship between Israel and Palestine is so deteriorated it's almost beyond repair.
There will always be many Isrealies whom will be unable to ever forgive and forget that a Palestinian blew up a bus, and along with it part of his family. By the exact same token, I am sure you will find many Palestinians who will always hate Israelis for destroying their country - with cause or not, Israel has flattened Palestine - and putting some of their people in jail, without charges or due process. [Of course, now we have done the very same thing with the Taliban POWs in Guantanamo Bay, so the Isralei precedent has been reaffirmed by the west. I think that was a mistake, and I am afraid it may costs us in the future]
Well, I don't believe it's any big secret that what you just mentioned represents the biggest reason for fearing that Muslim nations develop nukes... It would probably be "so long west" as we know it. Compare the different way in which we excercise anger management when we get upset with China (for messing with Taiwan, over and over again with their mitilary excercises, etc.), for instance, VS any Arab country... [QUOTE]It occurs to me that the Israelis and Palestinians are being played against each other like Iran and Iraq in the '80s: each side being given enough to continue the fight but not enough to win. What a drag, I hate it when I become that cynical.
[/QUOTE] I do believe there are people whose interests will benefit from that; it certainly benefits the west to have Israel armed to the brim out there, otherwise the US wouldn't give it a truckload of money in aid every single year. But then the whole issue becomes very convoluted, because everyone else will start looking at and dealing with the stituation in the way in which best suits him. Thus, all Arabs will claim that the west is funding the occupation of holy teorritories to them, and juxtaposed with that, we have America Jews, for example, who decide to move to Isarel and they (many of them) are sent to the occupied territories. They get there, make themselves a home, and are convinced that they are never going to have to leave because it was God himself who granted them them that very strip of land thousand of years ago. How do you argue with two groups of people, both of whom are saying the opposite, while each convinced (I am sure they honestly are) that their God wants things the way they want them? Gil | ||
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| 4/17/2003 8:56 PM |
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| Al Chem Ist | Exactly...after September 11, the world isn't big enough for both western ideology (democracy, capitalism) and radical Islam. (Actually, it should be radical Islam, egged on by wealthy monarchies, in which the majority of the people underneeth cannot participate in democracy and capitalism). We (as well as Israel) represent an excuse, we are looked as successful, yet evil, so we should be destroyed. Israel is close and convieneint, so they were (and are) the main targets. It would appear, ironically, that technology has enabled them to get to the big fish (us). I'm not saying that we or Israel have never done wrong, but it is clear that the fundamentalists will not listen to reason, and will not stop, no matter what happens in the Israel/Palestine situation. The solution??? |
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| 4/17/2003 11:19 PM |
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| Gil Ayan | On 4/17/2003 6:15 PM, Skreddy said: [QUOTE]The Palestinian issue is just an EXCUSE for militant Islamists to continue hostilities. Don't believe me? Consider... 1. the land that Israel occupies is tiny compared to all the other countries around her[/QUOTE] It's not the size that matters... Consider this example, you're hanging out with a friend and he puts his arm (say 20 lbs?) around your shoulder. You don't mind, do you? Now, imagine if instead of doing that, your friend decides to do something creative with his little 2 oz pinkie. To keep it PG-13, let's suppose he decides to stick it up your... nose. Tiny when compared to the 20 lb arm, isn't it? But I bet you wouldn't be so crazy about it, would you? Besides, let us not forget that - right or wrong - the Arabs had nothing to do with the British giving the land that is now Israel to the Jews after WWII (what the hell where the British doing there in the first place? And then we complain because some Arabs "hate the west for no reason"). Try for a minute to imagine how you'd feel if the neighborhood bully came around and decided to give away your backyard to someone else. I know, it's a stretch, but I am sure more than one middle eastern feels that way.
Being a total impartial party to the issues between Arabs and Jews, so, as an outsider so to speak, I would say that ancient heritage would have to apply both ways, as Arabs and Jews were one and the same a few thousand years ago. Like you, I don't believe the Jews will ever go away, but I don't think the Arabs will either. And is we go strictly by numbers, Muslims very comfortably outnumber Jews by order of magnitude.
I am sure that Rosa Parks would have a smile of her face if she read what you just wrote. On the one hand, there's status quo, and I believe what you stated may as well just be the "follower's motto." Fine, most of us are that way. However, history has shown that others have chosen to fight for what they believed in, against the establsihment, and managed to make a difference. Whether you think Jesus is the son of God or not, to me he fits that category to a t, and the guy changed the world, period. The fact that neither Arabs nor Jews will go away, which we've agreed on, doesn't mean that things will not HAVE TO change eventually. The way I see it, the belief that those people, who are fighting to change something that the likes of you and me simply don't understand, are stupid is, in my opinion, unfortunate. Anyone who thinks he has all the answers is the fool himself, for there are as many "truths" as the are cultures, so to speak. I would like to see the west a little more open to the possibility that we're perhaps dealing with something we don't totally understand here. Maybe we can start by understanding, and then make choices. Believing "those people" just hate the west "because they envy our freedom" sounds like a cop out to me, and a very ignorant one at that. [QUOTE]There is nothing the United States or Israel can do to placate them. Nothing. [/QUOTE] I will agree with one caveat: nothing that has been attempted so far seems to have worked. That includes wars (both by Israel and the US), economic sanctions, everlasting occupations, etc. I am not suggesting that Israel's withdrawal from the occupied territories would put an end to anything, in fact, it probably wouldn't in and of itself. However, I belive it would be the START of something, besides being the "right" thing to do. We talked about going to war with Iraq because Saddam had ignored UN resolutions for 12 years... If we go by the book, it's been like 35 years since UN resolutions started directing Israeld to get out of the occupied territories. In spite of that, just think out loud about imposing any kind of sanction on Israel for that reason and see where that takes you... and while you're at it, be prepared to be called anti semitic just in case. Good to see different points of view here. Cheers, Gil | ||
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| 4/18/2003 5:26 AM |
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| Kursad K | Both sides claim a city to be sacred for their religion. One of the sides tries to make prophesy of ages old sacred books come true. I've started to get the impression that neither Palestinians or Jews want peace. Kursad |
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