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Re: Serious question for non-denom Christians

4/15/2003 5:19 PM
anonymous	Re: Serious question for non-denom Christians To begin with, I don't consider myself a Christian. I don't believe there was a resurrection, nor do I believe in a virgin birth or three wise men. I don't believe that Jesus "died for my sins." I do believe that Jesus had a very important and powerful message which eclipses anything supernatural attributed to him. Does the truth of the resurection of Christ have any bearing on your faith? In other words, if it was somehow proven that a man named Jesus was crucified two thousand years ago, but remained dead, would this lessen his message or sacrifice? No, whether or not Jesus was resurrected has no bearing on my faith. To me, the resurrection seems like a fairy tale that was added on by the early Catholic Church. During the formative years of the early Church, being a Christian was punishable by by crucifiction or death in the gladitorial arena. Jesus's gift to the world was the Kingdom of God. Jesus spoke of the Kingdom of God not as a far away place for only those who "towed the line," but for everyone. The Kingdom of God is right here and right now. There are no prequalifications for entering, but the closer a person is to unconditionally loving all others and forgiving them completely, the easier it is to enter the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom of God is the love that God feels for all of us, and all we have to do is accept it. With God's love all things are possible, and there is no more need for laws, resurrections, Bibles or Messiahs. Unfortunately, this is not comforting. The Kingdom of God does not protect you from pain or physical death. Jesus was the ultimate example of this, the truth of his death is that even though he found the Kindom of God, he still was tortured and killed by his enemies. This would have been a hard sell to early Christians, so the Church had to manufacture a Messianic Jesus, born of a virgin, resurrected after death; he was a God. He forgave your sins if you accepted Him as your saviour, and if you towed the party line, He just might let you into Heaven. If you were an early Christian, which one would you likely want to believe? Is the resurection pivotal to being christian or just Roman Catholic (and it's assorted offshoot splinter groups)? I believe it is. Most Christians today trace their roots back to the Catholic Church, even the Protestants. And since Catholicism basically wiped out any contrary opinions of Jesus, the party line is that you must believe in the resurrection. Lastly, what if Jesus were essentially a yogi and was able to put himself into a meditative state that allowed him to endure his afflictions, never really died (how much did the Romans really check?), and later escaped or was assisted out of the tomb? Intersting thought. My best guess is that even if he did posses some yogi like properties and could have survived having nails driven through his hands and feet he would have perished from peritonitis from being stabbed by a spear. Yeah, yeah. I was raised catholic but consider myself more atheist than anything now. Needless to say though, I can still be a bit, uh, conflicted. I'm growing into seeing the merits of some spirituality as is does seem to serve a purpose where logic and reason seem to fail. Let me leave you with the 2nd verse of the Gospel of Thomas: (2) Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All."

4/15/2003 5:19 PM

anonymous

Re: Serious question for non-denom Christians

To begin with, I don't consider myself a Christian. I don't believe there was a resurrection, nor do I believe in a virgin birth or three wise men. I don't believe that Jesus "died for my sins." I do believe that Jesus had a very important and powerful message which eclipses anything supernatural attributed to him.

Does the *truth* of the resurection of Christ have any bearing on your faith? In other words, if it was somehow proven that a man named Jesus was crucified two thousand years ago, but remained dead, would this lessen his message or sacrifice?

No, whether or not Jesus was resurrected has no bearing on my faith. To me, the resurrection seems like a fairy tale that was added on by the early Catholic Church. During the formative years of the early Church, being a Christian was punishable by by crucifiction or death in the gladitorial arena. Jesus's gift to the world was the Kingdom of God. Jesus spoke of the Kingdom of God not as a far away place for only those who "towed the line," but for everyone. The Kingdom of God is right here and right now. There are no prequalifications for entering, but the closer a person is to unconditionally loving all others and forgiving them completely, the easier it is to enter the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom of God is the love that God feels for all of us, and all we have to do is accept it. With God's love all things are possible, and there is no more need for laws, resurrections, Bibles or Messiahs. Unfortunately, this is not comforting. The Kingdom of God does not protect you from pain or physical death. Jesus was the ultimate example of this, the truth of his death is that even though he found the Kindom of God, he still was tortured and killed by his enemies. This would have been a hard sell to early Christians, so the Church had to manufacture a Messianic Jesus, born of a virgin, resurrected after death; he was a God. He forgave your sins if you accepted Him as your saviour, and if you towed the party line, He just might let you into Heaven. If you were an early Christian, which one would you likely want to believe?

Is the resurection pivotal to being christian or just Roman Catholic (and it's assorted offshoot splinter groups)?

I believe it is. Most Christians today trace their roots back to the Catholic Church, even the Protestants. And since Catholicism basically wiped out any contrary opinions of Jesus, the party line is that you must believe in the resurrection.

Lastly, what if Jesus were essentially a yogi and was able to put himself into a meditative state that allowed him to endure his afflictions, never really died (how much did the Romans really check?), and later escaped or was assisted out of the tomb?

Intersting thought. My best guess is that even if he did posses some yogi like properties and could have survived having nails driven through his hands and feet he would have perished from peritonitis from being stabbed by a spear.

Yeah, yeah. I was raised catholic but consider myself more atheist than anything now. Needless to say though, I can still be a bit, uh, conflicted. I'm growing into seeing the merits of some spirituality as is does seem to serve a purpose where logic and reason seem to fail.

Let me leave you with the 2nd verse of the Gospel of Thomas:

(2) Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All."

4/15/2003 9:10 PM
anonymous	The resurrection is the Christian “prove” of the afterlife. Without the resurrection there is no afterlife and no “point” to the Christian system other than some useful behavioral guidelines. Antonio Bandaras made an interesting movie a few years ago called “The Body” which discusses this question extensively and the ramifications of a “mortal” Christ – very much worth renting at the video outlet.

4/15/2003 9:10 PM

anonymous

The resurrection is the Christian “prove” of the afterlife.
Without the resurrection there is no afterlife and no “point” to the Christian system other than some useful behavioral guidelines.
Antonio Bandaras made an interesting movie a few years ago called “The Body” which discusses this question extensively and the ramifications of a “mortal” Christ – very much worth renting at the video outlet.

4/19/2003 12:46 AM
LFOscalator	No thanks Mr Anonynous. I'll pass on your video idea. I think I'll read the bible instead. LFO

4/16/2003 7:33 PM
Stephen Giles	It's a bit like the virgin mary fiasco - pull the other one, it's got bells........

4/18/2003 3:28 AM
RickL	I find it interesting that the only one who actually bothered to answer the question was Anonymous. Even Mark, who usually has incredible insights when he posts on this kind of stuff, pretty much just restated the question. To be fair to Mark, of course, the question would have to be more the opposite - would your faith change if the resurection could somehow be proved? And before anyone starts, no, it hasn't been proved! So I don't fall into that camp... If the resurection was proved it would change me from a nontheist to at least an agnostic and more likely a provisional Christian. I would be more disposed to believe the truth of the Bible (hmmm, maybe there is something to this...) with a lower standard of evidence than I now require (if it's right about the resurection maybe it's right about some of the other stuff too). Good question, I hope you get more replies.

4/18/2003 3:28 AM

RickL

I find it interesting that the only one who actually bothered to answer the question was Anonymous. Even Mark, who usually has incredible insights when he posts on this kind of stuff, pretty much just restated the question. To be fair to Mark, of course, the question would have to be more the opposite - would your faith change if the resurection could somehow be proved? And before anyone starts, no, it hasn't been proved!

So I don't fall into that camp... If the resurection *was* proved it would change me from a nontheist to at least an agnostic and more likely a provisional Christian. I would be more disposed to believe the truth of the Bible (hmmm, maybe there *is* something to this...) with a lower standard of evidence than I now require (if it's right about the resurection maybe it's right about some of the other stuff too).

Good question, I hope you get more replies.

4/18/2003 6:28 AM

Skreddy

Oh yeah; I guess I ignored that question about what if the resurrection were disproved. I ignored it because it's already been proven (to my complete satisfaction beyond any question whatsoever) and it seemed like a moot point.

But, the fact is, arguendo, that if the resurrection were ever "proven" wrong, I would abandon Christianity immediately. It would be just another nice, but empty philosophy without it. I don't have time for empty philosophies. Especially when they don't deliver on their promises. The problem is that I've already experienced Jesus personally, so what do I do with that?

Christianity hinges on the resurrection of Jesus and would not have existed in the first place without it. The most powerful driving force behind Christianity's early rise to worldwide prominence was Paul the apostle. Paul's story begins (in the book of Acts, written by Luke the physician) as a pharisee named Saul holding the cloaks of those who are stoning Stephen, the first Christian martyr. Saul's zeal for his religion causes him to persecute the new sect known as Christians and pursue them relentlessly, having them imprisoned. Saul is met on the road to Damascus (hey; there's a city in the news lately) by a bright light that knocks him from his horse. Saul is blinded by the light and hears a voice calling to him "Saul, Saul; why are you persecuting me?" The terrified Saul replies "who are you, Lord?" The answer: "I am Jesus whom you persecute." The voice tells Saul to go into town and to wait at a certain house for further instructions. Then Jesus speaks to a Christian who is praying in town and tells him to meet Saul at this house and lay hands on him to restore his sight. The Christian argues (Saul was a well-known perpetrator and persecutor), but Jesus assures him that Saul will himself become a martyr for the faith. The rest is history. Many missionary trips and church plantings later, Paul (as he was renamed from Saul) spread Christianity as far as Rome itself. That's why the Roman Catholic church claims Paul as its founder. Paul's story hinges on a living Christ, and Paul's theology orbits around the resurrection of Christ and its primacy, centrality, power, efficacy, and absolute necessity. The resurrection of Christ is the fountain from which the entire Christian faith springs; without it there could be no salvation, no forgiveness, no grace, no power, and no truth.

quote:
"I would be more disposed to believe the truth of the Bible (hmmm, maybe there *is* something to this...) with a lower standard of evidence than I now require (if it's right about the resurection maybe it's right about some of the other stuff too)."

I can relate to that. Once Jesus proved Himself to me, the rest fell into place, and I didn't find it hard to take the Bible and Christianity seriously; even the hard sayings and seemingly dogmatic and arbitrary doctrines.

I think that the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus is probably the most well-documented chain of events in all of history; certainly anything in the 2,000-year-old range of history. The world would not be the same without it. Remove the resurrection, and Christianty simply implodes. It is the one irrefutable fact that is the rock upon which the Church was built. It is the stone upon which Christianity's enemies and detractors ultimately shatter themselves on. Without the literal resurrection of Jesus, Christianity wouldn't have survived one second. It is only ignorance or sheer unwillingness to believe that keeps the world from converting immediately. The people who were in the best position to disprove the resurrection, 2,000 years ago, came into the church by the thousands, wave upon wave. The enemies of early Christianity could not disprove the resurrection, so they resorted to silencing those who spoke about it. Obviously, that strategy yielded only limited results.

Sorry for the long post. I'm up too late to do a decent job of editing myself.

Thanks for reading.

4/18/2003 5:55 PM
RickL	I was kind of expecting the "it has been proven" response but I do like that you responded to the actual question. I hope Mark chimes in here, but I think we might not hear from him until Tuesday. As to your claim that "the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus is probably the most well-documented chain of events in all of history", it's news to me. Probably also to Jews like Mark Hammer, Moslems, Buddists, etc. not to mention other agnostics and atheists. If, however, you really do have strong evidence for this claim you might want to present it over at Internet Infidels, a board for atheists. Before you post though you might want to lurk a bit to get a feel for the kind of responses posting that kind of nonsense usually gets. The last person who made this kind of claim to me encouraged me to read a book called "The Case for Christ". I hope the author never plans on defending anyone in court because his client will end up in jail for a looong time. If this is the best kind of evidence for the "life, death, and resurrection of Jesus" I won't have to change my Sunday plans for a while. I have no problem with you believing in the resurrection, you say it lead to an improvement in your life and I believe you, but please don't pretend that there's any proof for it.

4/18/2003 5:55 PM

RickL

I was kind of expecting the "it has been proven" response but I do like that you responded to the actual question. I hope Mark chimes in here, but I think we might not hear from him until Tuesday.

As to your claim that "the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus is probably the most well-documented chain of events in all of history", it's news to me. Probably also to Jews like Mark Hammer, Moslems, Buddists, etc. not to mention other agnostics and atheists. If, however, you really do have strong evidence for this claim you might want to present it over at Internet Infidels, a board for atheists. Before you post though you might want to lurk a bit to get a feel for the kind of responses posting that kind of nonsense usually gets.

The last person who made this kind of claim to me encouraged me to read a book called "The Case for Christ". I hope the author never plans on defending anyone in court because his client will end up in jail for a looong time. If this is the best kind of evidence for the "life, death, and resurrection of Jesus" I won't have to change my Sunday plans for a while.

I have no problem with you believing in the resurrection, you say it lead to an improvement in your life and I believe you, but please don't pretend that there's any proof for it.

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