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Vintage threads from the first ten years

Re: Yet another prespective.

4/10/2003 9:08 PM
ben	Re: Yet another prespective. Good buddy Dave, you didn't answer my post. Pity. You did all the others. Fact is I pointed out to you one of the many reasons why not americans are not always too happy with statements made by your fellow americans. Fact is no one ever responds to that. Fact is that your administration is allowed to say everything they like. And that you, you americans are not critical enough to confront them with the impact with what they are saying. That's a point, that's a problem. But you don't react. Could that be an explanation why so many people don't like the american point of view? You tell me. By the way, yesterday I went to a concert of Terry Brozio. American guy, hell of a concert. Impressing. That's what matters. Ben

4/10/2003 9:08 PM

ben

Re: Yet another prespective.

Good buddy Dave,
you didn't answer my post. Pity. You did all the others. Fact is I pointed out to you one of the many reasons why not americans are not always too happy with statements made by your fellow americans.
Fact is no one ever responds to that. Fact is that your administration is allowed to say everything they like. And that you, you americans are not critical enough to confront them with the impact with what they are saying. That's a point, that's a problem. But you don't react. Could that be an explanation why so many people don't like the american point of view? You tell me.
By the way, yesterday I went to a concert of Terry Brozio. American guy, hell of a concert. Impressing.
That's what matters.

Ben

4/10/2003 10:38 PM
David Mitchell	Sorry about that Ben, I did respond but I replied to both you and Rob under Rob's name. Trust me when I say this, Americans are very critical of our administration myself included. The problem is protests will only take us so far. Our true voice comes at voting time. If you're ever in America try listening to some talk radio staions where we beat these issues to death. Most people here really care about what's going on one way or another. We're far from apathetic. Terry Bozio is incredible. He played with Frank Zappa and Missing Persons. Music soothes the soul brother! Dave

4/10/2003 10:38 PM

David Mitchell

Sorry about that Ben,
I did respond but I replied to both you and Rob under Rob's name. Trust me when I say this, Americans are very critical of our administration myself included. The problem is protests will only take us so far. Our true voice comes at voting time. If you're ever in America try listening to some talk radio staions where we beat these issues to death. Most people here really care about what's going on one way or another. We're far from apathetic.

Terry Bozio is incredible. He played with Frank Zappa and Missing Persons. Music soothes the soul brother!

Dave

4/8/2003 11:01 AM
Rob J	Hey David, Thanks for that long and thoughtful answer. I take a lot of your points, particularly the issue of US-bashing and the fact that France, Russia and China had material gain to be made from opposing the war. First of all I want to say that when I went out to protest, I was protesting against my OWN (UK) govt.'s involvement in the war first and foremost -- not against the US per se. Second, I think I made it clear in my previous post that what I'm advocating here isn't a 'fix' -- like you, I don't think the world can be 'fixed' as such -- and doesn't rely on supporting or denouncing particular states or whatever, but on giving clear voice against particular policies that are just plain bad for everyone and threaten to encroach on freedom and peace. My point is to defend the value of protest. It's got us a long way over the past hundred years -- look at suffrage, the civil rights movement and the anti-Vietnam war protests. All of these have made it more difficult for govt.s to enact unegalitarian or aggressive policies. One of the few things I read recently which made me optimistic (I won't bother with the link as I can't remember and there's not much that's relevant) said that there are now two Superpowers in the world: the US and global public opinion. I'm trying to stay on track with this argument and the rest of the points you make have been answered well enough elsewhere, so thanks again for your post. All the best, Robert

4/8/2003 11:01 AM

Rob J

Hey David,

Thanks for that long and thoughtful answer. I take a lot of your points, particularly the issue of US-bashing and the fact that France, Russia and China had material gain to be made from opposing the war.

First of all I want to say that when I went out to protest, I was protesting against my OWN (UK) govt.'s involvement in the war first and foremost -- not against the US per se.

Second, I think I made it clear in my previous post that what I'm advocating here isn't a 'fix' -- like you, I don't think the world can be 'fixed' as such -- and doesn't rely on supporting or denouncing particular states or whatever, but on giving clear voice against particular policies that are just plain bad for everyone and threaten to encroach on freedom and peace.

My point is to defend the value of protest. It's got us a long way over the past hundred years -- look at suffrage, the civil rights movement and the anti-Vietnam war protests. All of these have made it more difficult for govt.s to enact unegalitarian or aggressive policies.

One of the few things I read recently which made me optimistic (I won't bother with the link as I can't remember and there's not much that's relevant) said that there are now two Superpowers in the world: the US and global public opinion.

I'm trying to stay on track with this argument and the rest of the points you make have been answered well enough elsewhere, so thanks again for your post.

All the best,

Robert

4/9/2003 12:18 AM
David Mitchell	Ben and Rob, The US government is certainly guilty of meddling in places that they should leave alone. If I lived in a different part of the world I might see them as arrogant. Most people I know wish they would stop being the world's so called "police". The problem I have is I know some people who travel to different parts of the world and are treated rudely simply for being "American". My take on my own government is yes there are many things they do which are stupid and I don't agree with but I wouldn't leave my country for anything. The US is still a great place to live and is truly the land of opportunity. Judging by the amount of people who immigrate here, I'd have to say I'm not the only one who feels that way. The threat of terrorism is very real here after 9-11 so I do support my governments actions to address this problem. We had no choice but to act after such a vicious attack. Some people are so screwed up in the head and self-righteous that they think it's OK to kill americans because they don't like our government. I guess protesting like human beings isn't good enough for them. BTW Rob, those are excellent examples of the value of protesting. Those issues were well deserving as they represented ugly times in America. Beauty certainly came out of it, though. Dave

4/9/2003 12:18 AM

David Mitchell

Ben and Rob,

The US government is certainly guilty of meddling in places that they should leave alone. If I lived in a different part of the world I might see them as arrogant. Most people I know wish they would stop being the world's so called "police". The problem I have is I know some people who travel to different parts of the world and are treated rudely simply for being "American".
My take on my own government is yes there are many things they do which are stupid and I don't agree with but I wouldn't leave my country for anything. The US is still a great place to live and is truly the land of opportunity. Judging by the amount of people who immigrate here, I'd have to say I'm not the only one who feels that way.
The threat of terrorism is very real here after 9-11 so I do support my governments actions to address this problem. We had no choice but to act after such a vicious attack. Some people are so screwed up in the head and self-righteous that they think it's OK to kill americans because they don't like our government. I guess protesting like human beings isn't good enough for them.

BTW Rob, those are excellent examples of the value of protesting. Those issues were well deserving as they represented ugly times in America. Beauty certainly came out of it, though.

Dave

4/3/2003 6:09 AM
Joe King	Ben, Cry if you must It just amazes me how how some so called open minded liberal folks can behave sometimes! I was simply trying share with you'all a difrent perspective on the situation. I am certin farts smell like shit no matter where they come from. FYI: I am neither for or against the war I am not sure we (the usa ) are doing the right thing ... The truth is Nobody here has all the facts. all of us do have perspectives and opinions. I do however support the current administation they are the authority, wheather I like what they are doing it or not I respect them I guss that makes me a conformist (and that would be bad?) just like the kid from Medford just doing what he is told and beleiving he is doing the right thing. what exactly are you doing to help the situation? ....besides bitching about it? Are you concerned about Womens rights? Gay rights? a fair trial? capitol punishment? these Values do not exixist in that reigon of the world! But I suppose we should leave well enough alone? It seems to me like it's just you who is acusing me of arogance.... hard thought? Hmm yes good idea.

4/3/2003 6:09 AM

Joe King

Ben,
Cry if you must

It just amazes me how how some so called open minded liberal folks can behave sometimes!
I was simply trying share with you'all a difrent perspective on the situation.
I am certin farts smell like shit no matter where they come from.

FYI: I am neither for or against the war I am not sure we (the usa ) are doing the right thing ... The truth is Nobody here has all the facts. all of us do have perspectives and opinions.

I do however support the current administation they are the authority, wheather I like what they are doing it or not I respect them I guss that makes me a conformist (and that would be bad?) just like the kid from Medford just doing what he is told and beleiving he is doing the right thing.

what exactly are you doing to help the situation? ....besides bitching about it? Are you concerned about Womens rights? Gay rights? a fair trial? capitol punishment? these Values do not exixist in that reigon of the world! But I suppose we should leave well enough alone?

It seems to me like it's just you who is acusing me of arogance....
hard thought? Hmm yes good idea.

4/5/2003 3:29 PM
ben	Sorry Joe, you're right. I was wrong. Indeed is everyone allowed to have his own ideas. And to keep them. And no, it was most certainly not my intention to accuse you personally of arrogance. My point is lots of people in Europe do see the attitude of America (not the people but the administration) as arrogant. If you want to present yourself as a conformist for supporting the current administration, no problem. Fine with me. Politicians however are not my favourite kind of people. Never have been and probably never will be. But that's just me and has nothing to do with something between you and me. As it happens yes, woman rights, gay rights and a fair trial are considered normal where I live. No we do not have capital punishement which pleases me since I am strongly opposted. And I do know that there are many countries, included the ones in that region, where those things are not granted. But I think that if we start up that kind of discussion it will bring us far away and will take a very, very long time. Values normally are imbedded in a culture, so it will not always be an easy thing to compare them. Only sure thing is that your and mine culture differ less than your or mine culture differ with the culture(s) in the Mid-East. What I do to help the situation? Pityfull little. Not to say nothing at all. Why? What can I do! The only thing I really can do to make this world a better place for all of us to live in, is to raise my 2 sons, 16 & 18, into selfassured human beings with a mind of their own who must do their thing without hurting other people. If I did well or has just been plain lucky, I don't know. But as far as now it worked out well. And yes, I too don't have all the information. And are convinced that Saddam most certainly is not gods gift to mankind and that Iraq for most people there will be a better place to live if he wasn't there. But remain also convinced that your administration seemed awfully eager to start this war. Ben

4/5/2003 3:29 PM

ben

Sorry Joe, you're right. I was wrong.
Indeed is everyone allowed to have his own ideas. And to keep them.
And no, it was most certainly not my intention to accuse you personally of arrogance. My point is lots of people in Europe do see the attitude of America (not the people but the administration) as arrogant.

If you want to present yourself as a conformist for supporting the current administration, no problem. Fine with me.
Politicians however are not my favourite kind of people. Never have been and probably never will be. But that's just me and has nothing to do with something between you and me.

As it happens yes, woman rights, gay rights and a fair trial are considered normal where I live. No we do not have capital punishement which pleases me since I am strongly opposted.
And I do know that there are many countries, included the ones in that region, where those things are not granted. But I think that if we start up that kind of discussion it will bring us far away and will take a very, very long time. Values normally are imbedded in a culture, so it will not always be an easy thing to compare them. Only sure thing is that your and mine culture differ less than your or mine culture differ with the culture(s) in the Mid-East.

What I do to help the situation? Pityfull little. Not to say nothing at all. Why? What can I do!
The only thing I really can do to make this world a better place for all of us to live in, is to raise my 2 sons, 16 & 18, into selfassured human beings with a mind of their own who must do their thing without hurting other people. If I did well or has just been plain lucky, I don't know. But as far as now it worked out well.

And yes, I too don't have all the information. And are convinced that Saddam most certainly is not gods gift to mankind and that Iraq for most people there will be a better place to live if he wasn't there. But remain also convinced that your administration seemed awfully eager to start this war.

Ben

4/5/2003 10:14 PM
Joe King	"But remain also convinced that your administration seemed awfully eager to start this war." Ben, I am sad to say, I do agree. I would have liked to see more U.N. support in going to war. I do beleive Sadam has been playing a shell game with WMDs ....of course there is No publicly available proof but I suspect that is the reason we have gone forward with the war. Now that the war is on going, I sincerely hope My country(USA) behaves honerably so that the people of Iraq benifit more than anyone else. BTW: I very much dislike politics too! I have found no matter where I go to one degree or another politics are present. the good thing is sometime people are pushed to do the right thing because of politics.

4/5/2003 10:14 PM

Joe King

"But remain also convinced that your administration seemed awfully eager to start this war."

Ben,
I am sad to say, I do agree. I would have liked to see more U.N. support in going to war. I do beleive Sadam has been playing a shell game with WMDs ....of course there is No publicly available proof but I suspect that is the reason we have gone forward with the war. Now that the war is on going, I sincerely hope My country(USA) behaves honerably so that the people of Iraq benifit more than anyone else.

BTW: I very much dislike politics too! I have found no matter where I go to one degree or another politics are present. the good thing is sometime people are pushed to do the right thing because of politics.

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