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Re: Yet another prespective.

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4/5/2003 7:47 PM

Re: Yet another prespective.

Mijn Nederlandze is fijne, maar u bent niet

Well Dave my man,

you made yourself clear, that much is for sure.
It's also true that the stated sentence isn't Dutch. For a moment my thoughts went to Afrikaans (South Africa), but not really knowing that language, I can't tell for sure.
So maybe we shouldn't bicker about the finesses of language but focus on the contents instead.
I understood what you're saying, you're got the message. I think that's important. Not some typing errors.

A war is going on. People are dying because of it. Many others will suffer because of it. That's the point.
Another point is that, according to what I see:
1 - youre administration seemed very eager to start this war.
2 - historically since Korea it appears that American administrations not always made the right choices for their allies. The intervention in Chili was a questionable one for example and I never understood what you were doing in Vietnam as another example.
3 - fact is that, when Saddam took things in hand in Iraq it didn't bother the U.S. at all at that time. In fact he got ample support during his war with Iran. By the way: the U.S. did the same thing with Bin Laden.
4 - it may be true that there are questions about Iran after the Sjah but don't forget that the Sjah was not exactly mister nice guy either.

So please allow me to be a little cynical and critical about this "our fine boys and girls" are goin to help the poor people of Iraq.

Ben

4/6/2003 2:31 AM

Robert and Ben,

Thanks for your perspectives. I do like to hear what people from other countries think.

A little about myself:
I'm a registered independant and didn't vote for either Bush or Gore (although after 9-11 I was glad Gore wasn't in office.) I generally don't trust politicians. Most care little about the people they represent and are in it for self gain.

I also believe the world can't be fixed. The problem is the automobile industry made bllionaires out of mental midgets in the mideast and big oil companies who in turn have the power to control everything. We learned in 1973 that the time had come to use alternative energy sources yet not one administration since then has made it a priority and here we are still worried about the mideast. If we could switch cars over to say, Hydrogen then the billionaires in the mideast disappear and America can lose it's interest in that part of the world.

That being said, I am sick of the world blaming all problems on America. The UN is a joke and shares much of the blame in this war. The countries that opposed this war were themselves in bed with Iraq. The only way diplomacy could have worked is if Saddam knew the entire world was against him. Instead we have countries like France,Germany etc. with billion dollar deals with Iraq dissenting and in turn empowering an evil dictator. BTW countries sometimes have to get in bed with people they don't want to for the greater good of everything i.e. Stalin in WWII.

The main point here is that 9-11 hit close to home and there are many freaks that think it's OK to kill americans just because they don't agree with American foreign policy. I think it is super naive to think that there is no connection between saddam and terrorist groups. Bush and co. have no choice but to protect us from this. Of course there are other hidden agendas behind the war but the american way of life is at stake here and you have a problem if you think Bush is that evil that he would send people off to die with no good reason. The liberation of Iraqi people isn't the reason but an added bonus in the protection of America.

You can be cynical if you want but the bottom line is the US has the best servicemen and women in the world and the good people of Iraq will be grateful when we take saddam out of power. People need to realize the war is on whether they like it or not and our troops need support from their fellow Americans. They are trying to protect our way of life that the rest of the world is jealous of.

Dave

4/6/2003 10:46 AM

Dave,

I have to agree with your points.
That the US has the most powerful army in the world is a fact. That there are times that you must fight, regardless the opinions you have about fighting, is another fact.

And yes, as a country you have the obligation to protect your citizens. All that is true

And no, I don't think America alone is to blame for all the problems of the world. Several european countries do have their fair share to and that is common knowledge.
I think you hit the nail on the head with your statement on the automobile industrie and the oil companies. In my opinion short term thinking and just plain greed (both politicians and industrie) are part of the reason why there are problems like Saddam. Without the oil money the man probably would just be the local warlord of his clan. Nothing more.

No, I don't think Bush is evil. Maybe stupid, maybe wrongly informed or maybe even right. I don't know. But certainly not evil. Just thinking of Vietnam where thousands and thousands of americans, just people like you and me, died. For what cause? Was it worth dying for? I don't think so. Still do.
I am concerned about where this whole situation will lead us. That is for sure. Because I don't believe taking out Saddam will put an end to it.

Ben

4/7/2003 2:13 AM

Ben,

It's well known that companies like General Motors and others were responsible for the demise of a lot of public transportation such as the vast trolley networks in America in the early days of the automobile. Money definitely gets things done when it comes to big business and politicians.

Vietnam was certainly a huge mistake and the way it ended was a big insult to all who fought in that war. I certainly wish it never happened. It was a very complicated war with lots of hidden agendas. One of which was a large supply of tungsten which is one reason why france was there before us.

I too, am concerned with who will be chosen to run the interim government of Iraq. I feel Saddam must be taken out of power regardless but the work will be cut out for everyone once this war is over. We shall soon see.

Dave

4/7/2003 4:46 PM

Hi Dave,

most interesting thing in this discussion, I think the most important too, is that once you start talking with each other and realy listen to each other there are not that much differences between our seperate points of view. We seemed to be able to agree on many points. Or maybe we are able to come together because we will listen to each other and are capable to consider the value of each others, in the beginning seemingly different, points of view. Maybe that's just the magic. Listen to each other, consider that - just maybe - the other does have a point too.
I feel I have to thank you and Joe King. You made me think about my own position. Me, I am from europe. With a background in the roaring, political, 70's. Left wing. Your administrations may not be my favourites but I have never seen the american people as an enemy.

Ben

4/8/2003 1:52 AM

Thanks Ben,

I'm glad to hear you feel that way. That's the problem with the world today, there's just not enough listening to each other. I love to hear points of view different from my own to see where other people are coming from. I have many friends with completely different political views than my own but I can always find common ground with them. Listening to people with different views keeps me honest with my own views.
I'm glad you feel that way about Americans because most people I know would give you the shirt off their back. Many of us are the product of immigrants who still feel strong ties with where we came from but are glad to be american at the same time.

4/8/2003 9:44 PM

Dave,

I think you read the post of Rob too by now and one thing is for sure: we europeans don't hate americans. We may not agree with your point of view always and we often don't agree with the points of view of your various administrations. We evenly may be heavy against it. It still doesn't means we hate you as individuals, as persons. And that's the point. A point that, I think, is to often forgetten in this thread. It's not personal. It's against a way of thinking.

Me myself: during summer '65 I toured with a californian band in Italy for some months. Pre hippy times. We had our share of american visitors. A lot of them in fact. Nice people. All of them. Then the hippies. Again nice people. All of them. After that other americans. Nice people, all of them. So I have no reason whatshowever to have any grudge, whatever, to the american as an individual.

But now your administration and wonderboy Bush. As you may know, or may know not, we have an international court here at the Hague. Milosevick stays trial there. Just an example.
What's the position of your administration? If any american citizen ever stays to trial there, we ( the americans) are at liberty to invade your country to liberate that person. Just because we don't want it. Well Dave, my country tells at all some 17 milions of inhabitants. Yours is the biggest army in the world. Please feel free to tell me how I must feel now. Your choice.
Dear Dave, you tell me now. Must I accept this or are I allowed to dislike the interference of the american administration in my own country.
Then again please , tell me. Must I see this as arrogance or just plain stupidity. You tell me.

Ben

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