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Vintage threads from the first ten years

Re: Let us not forget...

4/8/2003 11:54 PM

Mark Ingram

Re: Let us not forget...

Rob,

quote:
"Who is 'they'?"

According to Bob's post, "they" are the people who couldn't be bothered with the condition of the people in Iraq until the U.S. (and allies) got involved. Why weren't they rioting in the streets, blocking traffic, holding "dead-ins" like the one in New York last week, when Saddam and family were killing hundreds of thousands? And why hasn't anyone protested the Fedeyeen Saddam shooting Iraqi civilians from roof-tops as the civilians fled Basrah? Enquiring minds want to know. Bob made a good point and you ignored it completely

quote:
"one minute everybody's moaning about how apathetic everyone is and then ..."

If everyone were as involved as, say, Amnesty International, or some similar organization Bob's point would be invalid. As it is, however, Bob is right: most of the protesters couldn't be bothered to get out of their easy chairs until the U.S. got involved. Kind of makes one wonder what the protests are *really* all about...

M

4/9/2003 9:46 AM
Rob J	Hi Mark, I'll direct you to my post of 4/1 above which answers some of your points. Also I'll say that when Saddam was committing his worst atrocities (e.g. the gassing of Kurds in Halabja, the slaughter of marsh Arabs), these events weren't exactly in the news. Most people didn't even know they were happening. One of the reasons they didn't come to light immediately is that the US administration of the time were very extensively supporting the Ba'ath regime, which they continued to do well after these worst of its atrocities were being perpetrated. People need to know about stuff to protest against it -- so there certainly was protest at that time, but mainly by people 'in the know' like, as you say, Amnesty International and the 'old left'. It's crucial to note that they were protesting against US support for Hussein -- protest is only really effective when you protest against your own govt.'s actions, not somebody else's (this would apply also to your points about the reported actions of the Fedeyeen). Similar protests happened in the UK and France, by the way, when those govt.s were guaranteeing arms sales to Iraq with credit from public revenue. I agree that there's a new element in these current protests, which draw a much broader crowd. That's my point: these are ordinary people, not career activists. I think this is very important. The last few years have seen a process of politicisation in ordinary working people the like of which hasn't really happened before and I think this can only be a good thing. It's about time. I don't think Bob's points, or yours, are invalid; I just disagree with them. Likewise, the fact that you disagree with the protesters' views doesn't make them invalid. If you really want to question so many people's motives for protesting now rather than at any other time, I think you need to try some approach other than what is essentially name-calling. There are certainly questions to be asked about why it's now that people have got off of their 'Barcaloungers', and I'd be interested to hear some answers other than those I've already suggested. Robert

4/9/2003 9:46 AM

Rob J

Hi Mark,

I'll direct you to my post of 4/1 above which answers some of your points. Also I'll say that when Saddam was committing his worst atrocities (e.g. the gassing of Kurds in Halabja, the slaughter of marsh Arabs), these events weren't exactly in the news. Most people didn't even know they were happening.

One of the reasons they didn't come to light immediately is that the US administration of the time were very extensively supporting the Ba'ath regime, which they continued to do well after these worst of its atrocities were being perpetrated.

People need to know about stuff to protest against it -- so there certainly was protest at that time, but mainly by people 'in the know' like, as you say, Amnesty International and the 'old left'.

It's crucial to note that they were protesting against US support for Hussein -- protest is only really effective when you protest against your own govt.'s actions, not somebody else's (this would apply also to your points about the reported actions of the Fedeyeen). Similar protests happened in the UK and France, by the way, when those govt.s were guaranteeing arms sales to Iraq with credit from public revenue.

I agree that there's a new element in these current protests, which draw a much broader crowd. That's my point: these are ordinary people, not career activists. I think this is very important. The last few years have seen a process of politicisation in ordinary working people the like of which hasn't really happened before and I think this can only be a good thing. It's about time.

I don't think Bob's points, or yours, are invalid; I just disagree with them. Likewise, the fact that you disagree with the protesters' views doesn't make them invalid. If you really want to question so many people's motives for protesting now rather than at any other time, I think you need to try some approach other than what is essentially name-calling. There are certainly questions to be asked about why it's now that people have got off of their 'Barcaloungers', and I'd be interested to hear some answers other than those I've already suggested.

Robert

4/7/2003 11:49 PM
bob predaina	[QUOTE]Those who are paying the ultimate price represent forever empty seats at school meetings, nighttime stories that won't be told to their children, a lifetime of friendship and family and church and more that is forever stilled. They have names and faces. Names like...Army Spc. Gregory P. Sanders, 19, of Hobart, Ind., killed in combat.[/QUOTE]Greg Sanders came home today. Here are some photos: http://www.geocities.com/custom_basses/sanders

4/7/2003 11:49 PM

bob predaina

[QUOTE]Those who are paying the ultimate price represent forever empty seats at school meetings, nighttime stories that won't be told to their children, a lifetime of friendship and family and church and more that is forever stilled.

They have names and faces. Names like...Army Spc. Gregory P. Sanders, 19, of Hobart, Ind., killed in combat.[/QUOTE]Greg Sanders came home today. Here are some photos:

http://www.geocities.com/custom_basses/sanders

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