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Re: Question for Mike

6/19/2003 7:37 PM
MBSetzer	Re: Question for Mike Well, the unsaturated property of a hydrocarbon or a vegetable oil is because of the carbon double-bonds present in the molecule. Most of the carbon bonds are still just single bonds and as the chain length increases the physical properties of evaporation rate become slower and the viscosity becomes greater. The simplest unsaturated hydrocarbon is ethylene which is a gas (VERY fast evaporation) but at the plastic plant its molecules hit the reactor and combine with each other under controlled conditions to form polyethylene plastic, the longer-chain product is high-density polyethylene, the more flexible low density material is when the carbon chains are not allowed to grow as large. The double bond is a reactive one and can absorb hydrogen under reactive conditions to become a single bond, in other words saturated with hydrogen. Single bonded carbon chains do not have much possibility to react except with oxygen in the presence of a spark, then they burn and are oxidized to water and carbon dioxide. Double bonded chains burn just as well, so this is a fuel reaction not related to saturation. The slow oxidation of unsaturated oils is not as dramatic as a flash fire, it still happens and is considered to be rancidity, but it really gets nasty after microorganisms begin to feed on the oxidized products. Polyunsaturated oils just have more double bonds scattered occasionally throughout the molecule, therefore more possibility of combining with each other and doubling the molecule size or growing further until the viscosity is high enough to call them solids since they are oils no more. Monounsaturates like olive oil are not nearly as likely to polymerize under mild conditions, and even if so their chain length is also less likely to increase to the point of becoming a rigid solid. I think for a rosewood fretboard regular soybean oil would be the better treatment to achieve the long-term preservation I have in mind. Polymers have more than once been discovered by accident, even Teflon. One of the toughest accidental plastics I encountered was in an abandoned apartment in Houston, maybe it had been left alone for a whole year or two. Everything had been left as it was, on the stove was a cast iron skillet where they had removed the fried food from a couple cups of vegetable oil. The oil had not been removed, the stove was not quite level and there was some tilt to one side. Looked like it was going to spill if you picked it up, but no, more flow would not be possible, it seemed hard as a rock. I was doing plastic quality control at the time, chipped out a sample and took it to the lab. It exceeded HDPE for hardness. Now olive oil is the only oil I prefer to consume, no other animal, vegetable, or mineral oils do I really like. Of course the mineral oils are just undigestible lubricants. I prefer extra virgin for taste but I don't think there would be much difference in physical properties. If its going to be virgin, might as well be extra virgin, now is that an oxymoron? hmm, I used to eat steak and I liked it cooked extra medium Mike ps. Do not test yourself on the Rockwell hardness tester

6/19/2003 7:37 PM

MBSetzer

Re: Question for Mike

Well, the unsaturated property of a hydrocarbon or a vegetable oil is because of the carbon double-bonds present in the molecule. Most of the carbon bonds are still just single bonds and as the chain length increases the physical properties of evaporation rate become slower and the viscosity becomes greater. The simplest unsaturated hydrocarbon is ethylene which is a gas (VERY fast evaporation) but at the plastic plant its molecules hit the reactor and combine with each other under controlled conditions to form polyethylene plastic, the longer-chain product is high-density polyethylene, the more flexible low density material is when the carbon chains are not allowed to grow as large.

The double bond is a reactive one and can absorb hydrogen under reactive conditions to become a single bond, in other words saturated with hydrogen. Single bonded carbon chains do not have much possibility to react except with oxygen in the presence of a spark, then they burn and are oxidized to water and carbon dioxide. Double bonded chains burn just as well, so this is a fuel reaction not related to saturation. The slow oxidation of unsaturated oils is not as dramatic as a flash fire, it still happens and is considered to be rancidity, but it really gets nasty after microorganisms begin to feed on the oxidized products.

Polyunsaturated oils just have more double bonds scattered occasionally throughout the molecule, therefore more possibility of combining with each other and doubling the molecule size or growing further until the viscosity is high enough to call them solids since they are oils no more.

Monounsaturates like olive oil are not nearly as likely to polymerize under mild conditions, and even if so their chain length is also less likely to increase to the point of becoming a rigid solid. I think for a rosewood fretboard regular soybean oil would be the better treatment to achieve the long-term preservation I have in mind.

Polymers have more than once been *discovered* by accident, even Teflon. One of the toughest accidental plastics I encountered was in an abandoned apartment in Houston, maybe it had been left alone for a whole year or two. Everything had been left as it was, on the stove was a cast iron skillet where they had removed the fried food from a couple cups of vegetable oil. The oil had not been removed, the stove was not quite level and there was some tilt to one side. Looked like it was going to spill if you picked it up, but no, more flow would not be possible, it seemed hard as a rock. I was doing plastic quality control at the time, chipped out a sample and took it to the lab. It exceeded HDPE for hardness.

Now olive oil is the only oil I prefer to consume, no other animal, vegetable, or mineral oils do I really like. Of course the mineral oils are just undigestible lubricants. I prefer extra virgin for taste but I don't think there would be much difference in physical properties. If its going to be virgin, might as well be extra virgin, now is that an oxymoron? hmm, I used to eat steak and I liked it cooked *extra medium*

Mike
ps. Do not test yourself on the Rockwell hardness tester

6/19/2003 11:41 PM
Alvin Maiden	Virgin Olive Oil is oil obtained by cold pressing seeds one time through the press. Extra Virgin Oil is obtained by taking the pressed seeds from step-1 and pressing them again to wring out even more oil from them. Extra-Extra Virgin is oil obtained a third time through the press. Some cooks believe the oil most reluctant to come out of the seed is the best. Is it better for guitars? I don't think so.

6/19/2003 11:41 PM

Alvin Maiden

Virgin Olive Oil is oil obtained by cold pressing seeds one time through the press.

Extra Virgin Oil is obtained by taking the pressed seeds from step-1 and pressing them again to wring out even more oil from them.

Extra-Extra Virgin is oil obtained a third time through the press.

Some cooks believe the oil most reluctant to come out of the seed is the best. Is it better for guitars? I don't think so.

6/19/2003 3:58 PM
anonymous	Re: How to clean a fretboard? Very interesting! As far as tupentine or mineral spirits are concerned(If I have my definition correct) will work well and not harm anything. It's not like it's lacquer thinner. I have even used turpentine to wet sand a lacquer finnish at times. one thing nice about turpintine is that although it will not harm a lacquer finish, the residue will dry fairly easily when wiped up. To me turpinine is just a notch or 2 finner then carosine which I have also used to some extent. JF

6/19/2003 3:58 PM

anonymous

Re: How to clean a fretboard?

Very interesting! As far as tupentine or mineral spirits are concerned(If I have my definition correct) will work well and not harm anything. It's not like it's lacquer thinner. I have even used turpentine to wet sand a lacquer finnish at times. one thing nice about turpintine is that although it will not harm a lacquer finish, the residue will dry fairly easily when wiped up. To me turpinine is just a notch or 2 finner then carosine which I have also used to some extent.
JF

6/19/2003 3:59 PM
John Fisher	That last post was from me. John Fisher

6/20/2003 7:51 PM
stephen conner	OK... I spent a while scrubbing it with a clean cotton rag, then scraped the gunk with a stiff piece of card, then scrubbed it some more, then finished off with a cloth that had a tiny smidgin of grapeseed oil on it. The fretboard looks great now (thanks for the advice) but I noticed the chrome is beginning to wear off the pickups and tailpiece. I'd have expected the chrome plating on a brand new PRS to last longer than six months Maybe I'm just playing it too often? Steve C.

6/20/2003 7:51 PM

stephen conner

OK... I spent a while scrubbing it with a clean cotton rag, then scraped the gunk with a stiff piece of card, then scrubbed it some more, then finished off with a cloth that had a tiny smidgin of grapeseed oil on it.

The fretboard looks great now (thanks for the advice) but I noticed the chrome is beginning to wear off the pickups and tailpiece. I'd have expected the chrome plating on a brand new PRS to last longer than six months

Maybe I'm just playing it too often?

Steve C.

6/20/2003 10:51 PM

Le Basseur

quote:
"I noticed the chrome is beginning to wear off the pickups and tailpiece.Maybe I'm just playing it too often?"

It's not too often...it's you getting better!

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