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A few things to consider

4/17/2003 12:50 PM
Doug H	A few things to consider Here's something I posted a week or so ago at ax84 about sharing amplifier schematics. It was in reply to an amp builder. Maybe it will help here: ------ I have had a few discussions on this subject before and thought I might share a few tidbits I've learned. First, I think there are 3 different kinds of people in the audience out there: 1. Musicians with no interest in electronics or DIY (the majority). 2. Honest DIY hobbyists who are interested in learning and expanding their knowledge. 3. Ripoff artists who want to clone a popular design to make a quick buck, whether they are a major corporation or fly-by-night. Most of your sales are going to be to types 1, with much fewer to types 2 & 3. For all intents and purposes the guy you most want to protect your schematics from is type 3. Unfortunately, once you sell your first unit, you really cannot protect yourself against that. There hasn't been a method (potting, etc) of "hiding" a circuit yet that hasn't been defeated. Anyone with enough time and resources can buy your amp and eventually reverse-engineer it if they want. That's just a risk you take when you build something and sell it. If you get in that situation where someone is actually cloning and selling your idea, you are in a cat & mouse game where you must stay a step ahead and offer something the cloner doesn't. Witholding schematics really only penalizes type 2, the honest diy-er because type 1 has no interest and type 3 can get the info anyway. Some things to think about: What is the real value of an amplifier? Does the schematic tell the whole story or determine the ultimate value? IMO, no. There are a lot of other issues that come into play here: build quality, craftsmanship, component quality, aesthetics, etc. Even tonewise I think one schem can sound differently based on layout, components, etc. Sometimes I think we oversimplify this and put too much emphasis on schematics. DIY-ers should also understand that there is a difference between publicly posting something on a web site vs. privately sharing something with your buddies through email. Publicly posted material is much more vulnerable to being picked up and re-distributed out of your (or the author's) control. The international community does not all view intellectual property the same as the U.S. (and those laws won't necessarily help you much in this case anyway). Anyway, just a few things to think about. I can see both sides of the issue. Doug -----

4/17/2003 12:50 PM

Doug H

A few things to consider

Here's something I posted a week or so ago at ax84 about sharing amplifier schematics. It was in reply to an amp builder. Maybe it will help here:

------

I have had a few discussions on this subject before and thought I might share a few tidbits I've learned.

First, I think there are 3 different kinds of people in the audience out there:

1. Musicians with no interest in electronics or DIY (the majority).

2. Honest DIY hobbyists who are interested in learning and expanding their knowledge.

3. Ripoff artists who want to clone a popular design to make a quick buck, whether they are a major corporation or fly-by-night.

Most of your sales are going to be to types 1, with much fewer to types 2 & 3. For all intents and purposes the guy you most want to protect your schematics from is type 3. Unfortunately, once you sell your first unit, you really cannot protect yourself against that. There hasn't been a method (potting, etc) of "hiding" a circuit yet that hasn't been defeated. Anyone with enough time and resources can buy your amp and eventually reverse-engineer it if they want. That's just a risk you take when you build something and sell it.

If you get in that situation where someone is actually cloning and selling your idea, you are in a cat & mouse game where you must stay a step ahead and offer something the cloner doesn't. Witholding schematics really only penalizes type 2, the honest diy-er because type 1 has no interest and type 3 can get the info anyway.

Some things to think about:

What is the real value of an amplifier? Does the schematic tell the whole story or determine the ultimate value? IMO, no. There are a lot of other issues that come into play here: build quality, craftsmanship, component quality, aesthetics, etc.
Even tonewise I think one schem can sound differently based on layout, components, etc. Sometimes I think we oversimplify this and put too much emphasis on schematics.

DIY-ers should also understand that there is a difference between publicly posting something on a web site vs. privately sharing something with your buddies through email. Publicly posted material is much more vulnerable to being picked up and re-distributed out of your (or the author's) control. The international community does not all view intellectual property the same as the U.S. (and those laws won't necessarily help you much in this case anyway).

Anyway, just a few things to think about. I can see both sides of the issue.

Doug
-----

4/18/2003 5:49 PM
griff	more reasons yeah, we do have moral issues here, but another reason we dont do zvex clones or anything is cos he asked us not to. He posts here on occasion and helps people out, and is often very helpful, even in discussing his own designs. Same with Joe Gagan. Also, RG and Mark Hammer are against it, and they both command quite a lot of respect on these forums, being very helpful, insightful, intelligient and downright useful people. For those of us that have been part of ampage for a while, even if like myself we dont put all that much back into it, well, cloning a zvex would be akin to shooting oneself in the foot. I would feel bad about it, and if i publicised the fact, well, i wouldnt get any more from the wealth of knowledge here. So there you go, selfish reasons. It's only cos nobody has fully stated these yet griff

4/18/2003 5:49 PM

griff

more reasons

yeah, we do have moral issues here, but another reason we dont do zvex clones or anything is cos he asked us not to. He posts here on occasion and helps people out, and is often very helpful, even in discussing his own designs. Same with Joe Gagan.
Also, RG and Mark Hammer are against it, and they both command quite a lot of respect on these forums, being very helpful, insightful, intelligient and downright useful people.

For those of us that have been part of ampage for a while, even if like myself we dont put all that much back into it, well, cloning a zvex would be akin to shooting oneself in the foot. I would feel bad about it, and if i publicised the fact, well, i wouldnt get any more from the wealth of knowledge here.

So there you go, selfish reasons. It's only cos nobody has fully stated these yet

griff

4/20/2003 6:48 PM
LFOscalator	Re: A few things to consider Some good input into this discussion on your part Doug. I myself am a modified type 1. I know a lot about electronics but rather play music than build. I like knowing how something works electronically because then I can make an intellegent decision when purchasing. I don't think that cloning significantly effects the market for a product unless the clones are being sold. LFO

4/20/2003 6:48 PM

LFOscalator

Re: A few things to consider

Some good input into this discussion on your part Doug.

I myself am a modified type 1. I know a lot about electronics but rather play music than build. I like knowing how something works electronically because then I can make an intellegent decision when purchasing.

I don't think that cloning significantly effects the market for a product unless the clones are being sold.

LFO

4/20/2003 6:15 PM
LFOscalator	Re: How to Build a Fuzz Factory... I'm not going to take sides in this argument but have to agree that you make one hell of a good point. THIS IS A DIY SITE. WHY WOULD ANYBODY BE SURPRISED THAT SOMEONE WANTS TO BUILD THEIR OWN FUZZ FACTORY? Personally I have lots of respect for ZVEX and feel that people shouldn't dis' him or his products because they are extremely good and certainly are considered some of the best. I myself would certainly buy a ZVEX product before considering cloning one. But hey, you make a compelling argument. THIS IS A DIY SITE. LFO

4/20/2003 6:15 PM

LFOscalator

Re: How to Build a Fuzz Factory...

I'm not going to take sides in this argument but have to agree that you make one hell of a good point.

THIS IS A DIY SITE. WHY WOULD ANYBODY BE SURPRISED THAT SOMEONE WANTS TO BUILD THEIR OWN FUZZ FACTORY?

Personally I have lots of respect for ZVEX and feel that people shouldn't dis' him or his products because they are extremely good and certainly are considered some of the best. I myself would certainly buy a ZVEX product before considering cloning one.

But hey, you make a compelling argument. THIS IS A DIY SITE.

LFO

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