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Vintage threads from the first ten years

Re: Barber schematics...

12/30/2002 12:36 AM
Mark Hammer	Re: Barber schematics... Dave, Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I'm still waiting to get around to writing it up (truckload of grading still to do), but I have been stockpiling people's comments about schematic posting this past autumn, in the hopes of producing a multi-stakeholder perspective on such things as an FAQ document for Aron Nelson's site (or whoever else wants to link to it). The idea is to provide an everyone's-last-word on the subject in a manner that encourages folks to consider other perspectives, rather than adopt a single one. My sense is that many of the firmly entrenched views on the subject come from folks who are working with somewhat different information from other folks. Clearly, they are going to do what they are going to do but I believe that providing broader perspective in an evenhanded way will give pause for thought, maybe just enough pause that folks will do the right thing...whatever that happens to be. I'll clip and save your note here to add to the pile, but it you would like to elaborate on the points you made or add any others, or feel strongly that some specific points should be included in the FAQ, drop me a line at the e-mail address above. Similarly, if anyone else would like to add their voice to the debate, send your comments along as well to: mhammer@ccs.carleton.ca Thanks for everyone's input, and congratulations on your commercial success Dave. May you have much more of it in the coming year. Mark

12/30/2002 12:36 AM

Mark Hammer

Re: Barber schematics...

Dave,

Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

I'm still waiting to get around to writing it up (truckload of grading still to do), but I have been stockpiling people's comments about schematic posting this past autumn, in the hopes of producing a multi-stakeholder perspective on such things as an FAQ document for Aron Nelson's site (or whoever else wants to link to it). The idea is to provide an everyone's-last-word on the subject in a manner that encourages folks to consider other perspectives, rather than adopt a single one. My sense is that many of the firmly entrenched views on the subject come from folks who are working with somewhat different information from other folks. Clearly, they are going to do what they are going to do but I believe that providing broader perspective in an evenhanded way will give pause for thought, maybe just enough pause that folks will do the right thing...whatever that happens to be.

I'll clip and save your note here to add to the pile, but it you would like to elaborate on the points you made or add any others, or feel strongly that some specific points should be included in the FAQ, drop me a line at the e-mail address above.

Similarly, if anyone else would like to add their voice to the debate, send your comments along as well to: mhammer@ccs.carleton.ca

Thanks for everyone's input, and congratulations on your commercial success Dave. May you have much more of it in the coming year.

Mark

12/30/2002 9:16 PM
R.G.	Who lives and who dies... ... in the effects business does NOT depend on who has the most - clever - original - vintage sounding - anything else circuit. Who lives and who dies in the effects business depends almost purely on who does the best job of the business. That is, making moderately good effects at a good target price for their market, exemplary customer service, schmoozing the big name players to endorse, slogging to every buyer for every music store and chain to carry the goods, having booths at trade shows, regularly advertising to the target market, getting good financing, watching employee theft, keeping up with state and local sales taxes, being current with social security and income taxes, getting and keeping licenses of several sorts, worrying about the cost of health care for employees, and all of the other several thousand things that have no bearing on effects sound at all. The sad truth is that zachary or you, David, only have to mess up any few of these things and you're toast. I know that you and zachary know this only too well. The comments are for those readers who think that the magic schematic is somehow worth a zillion dollars. There is a huge difference between making a dozen pedals in your garage in your spare time and running a business. The converse of this, and a view that is correct but that I have not as yet got you, or zachary, or any of the other boutique makers to line up with is that if you're doing the business side right, no home garage DIYer or pedal hacker can compete with you successfully. Having a few dozen repros of the schematic of your pedals sold is not going to affect your sales in any significant way. It can't possibly because the hackers and DIYers are a different set of customers than you sell to. The people who buy your pedals are not the same people who would make one from a posted schemo. As I noted in the very first edition of the Guitar Effects FAQ back in 92, a DIYer can't build an effect cheaper than a commercial maker can. They may fool themselves or actually win one on some especially cheaply designed pedal, but in the long run they spend more. The people who really play your pedals couldn't care less what's inside as long as it works reliably for the sound they bought it for. I have a test case. A few years ago, I read the review of the Dallas Rangemaster on Harmony Central and decided it would be a good subject for some forensic engineering. I set about digging up the circuit and was met head on by the guy who makes copies of the original. He threatened to have his brother in the CIA do dirty CIA tricks on me if I posted the schematic of the original. I did anyway, and that's how the Dallas Rangemaster schemo got to the web. I think I survived the CIA, but of course you can never really tell about that Funny thing - he's still making and selling copies of the Rangemaster. I doubt that he lost a dozen sales that he would otherwise have made if not for me, and I suspect that the actual number was more like maybe two. In any case, do your business right, you'll be OK whatever gets posted. R.G.

12/30/2002 9:16 PM

R.G.

Who lives and who dies...

... in the effects business does NOT depend on who has the most
- clever
- original
- vintage sounding
- anything else
circuit.

Who lives and who dies in the effects business depends almost purely on who does the best job of the *business*.

That is, making moderately good effects at a good target price for their market, exemplary customer service, schmoozing the big name players to endorse, slogging to every buyer for every music store and chain to carry the goods, having booths at trade shows, regularly advertising to the target market, getting good financing, watching employee theft, keeping up with state and local sales taxes, being current with social security and income taxes, getting and keeping licenses of several sorts, worrying about the cost of health care for employees, and all of the other several thousand things that have no bearing on effects sound at all.

The sad truth is that zachary or you, David, only have to mess up any few of these things and you're toast. I know that you and zachary know this only too well. The comments are for those readers who think that the magic schematic is somehow worth a zillion dollars. There is a huge difference between making a dozen pedals in your garage in your spare time and running a business.

The converse of this, and a view that is correct but that I have not as yet got you, or zachary, or any of the other boutique makers to line up with is that if you're doing the business side right, no home garage DIYer or pedal hacker can compete with you successfully. Having a few dozen repros of the schematic of your pedals sold is not going to affect your sales in any significant way. It can't possibly because the hackers and DIYers are a different set of customers than you sell to. The people who buy your pedals are not the same people who would make one from a posted schemo.

As I noted in the very first edition of the Guitar Effects FAQ back in 92, a DIYer can't build an effect cheaper than a commercial maker can. They may fool themselves or actually win one on some especially cheaply designed pedal, but in the long run they spend more. The people who really play your pedals couldn't care less what's inside as long as it works reliably for the sound they bought it for.

I have a test case. A few years ago, I read the review of the Dallas Rangemaster on Harmony Central and decided it would be a good subject for some forensic engineering. I set about digging up the circuit and was met head on by the guy who makes copies of the original. He threatened to have his brother in the CIA do dirty CIA tricks on me if I posted the schematic of the original. I did anyway, and that's how the Dallas Rangemaster schemo got to the web. I **think** I survived the CIA, but of course you can never really tell about that 8-)

Funny thing - he's still making and selling copies of the Rangemaster. I doubt that he lost a dozen sales that he would otherwise have made if not for me, and I suspect that the actual number was more like maybe two.

In any case, do your business right, you'll be OK whatever gets posted.

R.G.

12/30/2002 9:30 PM
Rob Strand	> He threatened to have his brother in the CIA do dirty CIA tricks on me if I posted the schematic of the original. Is that for real? If so I'd report the a**hole. Regards Rob

1/2/2003 3:56 AM

Doug H

quote:
"Is that for real? If so I'd report the a**hole."

IMO, the funniest part of that story is that the guy who made those threats was himself a cloner... As if he had any claim at all to the original idea... I've run into similar attitudes with other cloners too.

Doug

12/30/2002 10:29 PM
David Barber	R.G. Diatribed: "That is, making moderately good effects at a good target price for their market, exemplary customer service, schmoozing the big name players to endorse, slogging to every buyer for every music store and chain to carry the goods, having booths at trade shows, regularly advertising to the target market, getting good financing, watching employee theft, keeping up with state and local sales taxes, being current with social security and income taxes, getting and keeping licenses of several sorts, worrying about the cost of health care for employees, and all of the other several thousand things that have no bearing on effects sound at all." Could you please put up a technology of that stuff on yer site R.G.? As for the rest of the subject I am pretty tired and happy to move on to making more business mistakes. I will continue to add to my tweaks page, and will surely reveal more and more...aint none of it brain surgery, just details. The new PCB has silk screened component values for easing assembly; this is certainly not a circuit protection method...just the opposite. Once again I aint Tesla! My designing methods would be funny to most trained techs. Thanks and Happy New Year! David

12/30/2002 10:29 PM

David Barber

R.G.
Diatribed:
"That is, making moderately good effects at a good target price for their market, exemplary customer service, schmoozing the big name players to endorse, slogging to every buyer for every music store and chain to carry the goods, having booths at trade shows, regularly advertising to the target market, getting good financing, watching employee theft, keeping up with state and local sales taxes, being current with social security and income taxes, getting and keeping licenses of several sorts, worrying about the cost of health care for employees, and all of the other several thousand things that have no bearing on effects sound at all."

Could you please put up a technology of that stuff on yer site R.G.?

:-)

As for the rest of the subject I am pretty tired and happy to move on to making more business mistakes. I will continue to add to my tweaks page, and will surely reveal more and more...aint none of it brain surgery, just details. The new PCB has silk screened component values for easing assembly; this is certainly not a circuit protection method...just the opposite. Once again I aint Tesla! My designing methods would be funny to most trained techs.

Thanks and Happy New Year!

David

12/31/2002 10:38 PM
CharlieTheBeast	Yes you are right about the business side of it. On the other hand, it always pays to protect your intellectual property. The effects business has low barriers to entry and a motivated person could easily compete in the same game if they have the attitude and knowledge to do it. It never ceases to amaze me that the business section of the local phone book is almost as large as the residential pages. Seems like lot's of people have business smarts. Whoever executes best will survive. -c

12/31/2002 10:38 PM

CharlieTheBeast

Yes you are right about the business side of it.

On the other hand, it always pays to protect your intellectual property. The effects business has low barriers to entry and a motivated person could easily compete in the same game if they have the attitude and knowledge to do it.

It never ceases to amaze me that the business section of the local phone book is almost as large as the residential pages. Seems like lot's of people have business smarts.

Whoever executes best will survive.

-c

1/3/2003 5:14 AM
JodyRobinson	I agree, but if you compare the names of buisnesses in this years phone book with last years, a lot of names are in one and not the other. 50% of all biz's fail in the first year, 90% are gone within 5 years. And if you consider that anyone marketing musical instrument related items, they are selling to a customer who is notorious for having NO MONEY. Selling to musicians is difficult to be successful at. The ones with good buisness prowess will probally outlast those with good ideas. This is generally speaking, though. Zak is one of the exceptions, great products prevailing. But I'd bet he's got pretty good buisness sense, too. And Billy Gibbons didn't hurt either, as Zak has said before. ;^)

1/3/2003 5:14 AM

JodyRobinson

I agree, but if you compare the names of buisnesses in this years phone book with last years, a lot of names are in one and not the other.
50% of all biz's fail in the first year, 90% are gone within 5 years.
And if you consider that anyone marketing musical instrument related items, they are selling to a customer who is notorious for having NO MONEY. Selling to musicians is difficult to be successful at. The ones with good buisness prowess will probally outlast those with good ideas. This is generally speaking, though. Zak is one of the exceptions, great products prevailing. But I'd bet he's got pretty good buisness sense, too. And Billy Gibbons didn't hurt either, as Zak has said before. ;^)

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