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Vintage threads from the first ten years

Re: ZVex schematics?

12/25/2002 11:10 PM
CharlieTheBeast	Re: ZVex schematics? I understand your position. My question is, what is the law in these circumstances? Can a schematic be copywrited and therefore become offlimits to posting on the internet? I saw the review on your Direct Drive in GP and was impressed as were many other readers. I was amazed that you could produce it for as little as $99. Your point regarding paying less to buy it than build it is well taken. -c

12/25/2002 11:10 PM

CharlieTheBeast

Re: ZVex schematics?

I understand your position. My question is, what is the law in these circumstances? Can a schematic be copywrited and therefore become offlimits to posting on the internet?

I saw the review on your Direct Drive in GP and was impressed as were many other readers. I was amazed that you could produce it for as little as $99. Your point regarding paying less to buy it than build it is well taken.

-c

12/26/2002 9:30 AM
Rob Strand	> Some will build from this schematic and declare the Direct Drive dismal sounding, in reality they will have never heard anything resembling the Direct Drive (because of Robert Strand's immense flaws in his schematic). Just to clarify the topic for people who haven't been involved. There are an enormous number of comments on the schematic indicating it has flaws. In fact I made a point of doing this. Some of the comments on the schematic are: - "guess, could be a little fanciful" - "Close but probably has an error Unfortunately the unknown parts here make a difference" - "Quite Possibly has Errors" - "Traced from Very rough Photos" - "isn't this one a bit far fetched" This topic has been addressed off the group. Regards Rob

12/26/2002 9:30 AM

Rob Strand

> Some will build from this schematic and declare the Direct Drive dismal sounding, in reality they will have never heard anything resembling the Direct Drive (because of Robert Strand's immense flaws in his schematic).

Just to clarify the topic for people who haven't been involved. There are an enormous number of comments on the schematic indicating it has flaws. In fact I made a point of doing this. Some of the comments on the schematic are:

- "guess, could be a little fanciful"
- "Close but probably has an error
Unfortunately the unknown parts here make a difference"
- "Quite Possibly has Errors"
- "Traced from Very rough Photos"
- "isn't this one a bit far fetched"

This topic has been addressed off the group.

Regards
Rob

12/26/2002 4:17 PM
anonymous	$99 pedal schematics Is it ok to post the schematic for a $99 pedal produced by a faceless corporation? How is that different? The people employed by the corporation, that may also be in NYC, like to get paychecks too. What constitutes a big corporation? More than 300 employees? I wonder if Electroharmonix falls in this category? Is it ok for commercial pedal producers to lurk in diy forums to gather ideas and free r&d? What if they sometimes post responses? What if they never post?

12/26/2002 4:17 PM

anonymous

$99 pedal schematics

Is it ok to post the schematic for a $99 pedal produced by a faceless corporation? How is that different? The people employed by the corporation, that may also be in NYC, like to get paychecks too. What constitutes a big corporation? More than 300 employees? I wonder if Electroharmonix falls in this category?

Is it ok for commercial pedal producers to lurk in diy forums to gather ideas and free r&d? What if they sometimes post responses? What if they never post?

12/26/2002 6:24 PM
anonymous	Re: Barber schematics... Mr. Barber, Your effects are obviously regarded as very good, and You made a 'name' in the scene. Maybe that's why people post and want to see your schemes, as well as some other's (e.g. Zvex) schematics? I myself never build a pedal from an original schematic posted by the manufacturer. I use them merely for 'educational purposes', i.e. to learn from people who know (exactly what they are doing. Hobby DIY: How to combine IN buffer, bandpass, clipping stage, OUT buffer and make it sound good. Of course, this info could also be found in dedicated books, but then - I can never be sure that everything is put together right if I do it myself from scratch. Manufacturers schematics make perfect 'building blocks' sources. (geofex articles being about the only non-commercial source of enlightment) Hope you have nothing against that kind of approach? How else can I learn this kind of stuff? (unsol.) Solution: Try to post a scheme (of some design of yours - need not be commercial) on your website, give people what they want: Barber circ. design & a schematic 'from Barber'. By doing this your commercial design ideas will no longer be a forbidden fruit and not any longer seem soooo interesting for a curious DIY builder? Just a thought... anonymous

12/26/2002 6:24 PM

anonymous

Re: Barber schematics...

Mr. Barber,

Your effects are obviously regarded as very good, and You made a 'name' in the scene. Maybe that's why people post and want to see your schemes, as well as some other's (e.g. Zvex) schematics?

I myself never build a pedal from an original schematic posted by the manufacturer. I use them merely for 'educational purposes', i.e. to learn from people who know (exactly :-)

what they are doing. Hobby DIY: How to combine IN buffer, bandpass, clipping stage, OUT buffer and make it sound good. Of course, this info could also be found in dedicated books, but then - I can never be sure that everything is put together right if I do it myself from scratch. Manufacturers schematics make perfect 'building blocks' sources. (geofex articles being about the only non-commercial source of enlightment) Hope you have nothing against that kind of approach? How else can I learn this kind of stuff?

(unsol.) Solution: Try to post a scheme (of some design of yours - need not be commercial) on your website, give people what they want: Barber circ. design & a schematic 'from Barber'. By doing this your commercial design ideas will no longer be a forbidden fruit and not any longer seem soooo interesting for a curious DIY builder? Just a thought...

anonymous

12/26/2002 8:40 PM
David Barber	I will do my best to respond to the posts here that are directed at me. Excuse me if I respond to something that was rhetorical in nature. "Is it ok to post the schematic for a $99 pedal produced by a faceless corporation? I am not sure what you mean by "faceless corporation" do these exist? Are you meaning products without company names or product names?... I was surprised that a product that I designed just 4 months ago has already been posted and that the idea is to be able to make exact copies of my design (I will not guess at the purpose, nor will I believe the intent was benign). Most schematics that are used for learning and just plain "good ol DIY fun" are over 20 year old designs that at one time enjoyed a patented period and or have long since paid for the R&D of the product and then some. This is not the case with a 4 month old design by a small company without a legal team nor finance for patents). It is legal to do what Robert did, but it lacks judgment and ethics…Robert is taking a chance with my business…again legal, but not very nice. "Is it ok for commercial pedal producers to lurk in diy forums to gather ideas and free r&d? What if they sometimes post responses? What if they never post?" This should be decided as a whole by the forum and ultimately the webmaster. I have been an occasional poster at various forums for about 5 years, my posts possibly being seen as "spamming" keep me from posting frequently. “Manufacturer’s schematics make perfect 'building blocks' sources. (geofex articles being about the only non-commercial source of enlightment) Hope you have nothing against that kind of approach? I would be happy to share my designs at some point. I had planned to use my “Tweaks page” for this purpose; Robert’s post of the DD has me re-thinking my tweaks page. I have serious doubts about any positive use can come from in lifting my tweaks ideas for use on his web page…ethics again. They are very well documented on my page and taking them served no useful purpose…except to keep people from having a need to go to my site to learn the DD tweaks. The first time Ampage forum member Dan Haney showed up at my door I shared Tone Pump schematics with him after an agreement and a handshake, he then bought me dinner and since then we have remained friends…my guess is this is the type of “non-commercial source of enlightment” you are talking about. However some attempt to copy my work exactly for who knows what purpose and only 4 months after designing it is not really a fun thought for me. I believe Robert’s actions are legal in just about every country...Bit I don’t think we should use what is “legal” as a yardstick of what we should do…many things are very legal that are very ethically and morally wrong. “How else can I learn this kind of stuff?” There are books, GEO (free at this time!) Jack Orman has a CD that I have seen advertised. Craig Anderton has a wealth of knowledge available in paperback…I might even pen a book someday and sell it. Sometimes you have to pay for knowledge, I remember a Ben Franklin quote that goes something like “If you use your pocketbook to fill your head, your head will fill your pocketbook”. I think feeling entitled to my or anyone else’s knowledge is just that…a feeling of entitlement. “”Solution: Try to post a scheme (of some design of yours - need not be commercial) on your website, give people what they want: Barber circ. design & a schematic 'from Barber'. By doing this your commercial design ideas will no longer be a forbidden fruit and not any longer seem soooo interesting for a curious DIY builder? Just a thought...”” This would take time that I just don’t have at the moment (anybody live in MD and want to stuff PCBs?). I was considering the idea of posting some of my current designs, and you can plainly see I have shared a good bit of knowledge about the DD already at my “tweaks Page”. Robert’s post has shown me that my work can be taken from my page, re-written and then posted…this keeps people from having as much need for my page (not in my best interest). Would you be willing to pay for my designs if I offered them like Jack Orman does?...seems pretty fair right? No question it would be very hard for me to make agreements with people named anonymous…like “I post a cool schematic or two and anonymous promises not to post my commercial products schematics”…funny ring to eh? Robert has responded to my email today and the DD post at this time has been removed from the site where I saw it. I will be emailing Robert later today regarding his questions and to thank him for removing the DD schematic. I hope we can put this matter to rest and get back to building. Happy holidays, Thank you for reading my words and please have an open mind. In the future I will only be responding to people with names and a valid email address. David Barber

12/26/2002 8:40 PM

David Barber

I will do my best to respond to the posts here that are directed at me. Excuse me if I respond to something that was rhetorical in nature.

"Is it ok to post the schematic for a $99 pedal produced by a faceless corporation?

I am not sure what you mean by "faceless corporation" do these exist? Are you meaning products without company names or product names?... I was surprised that a product that I designed just 4 months ago has already been posted and that the idea is to be able to make exact copies of my design (I will not guess at the purpose, nor will I believe the intent was benign). Most schematics that are used for learning and just plain "good ol DIY fun" are over 20 year old designs that at one time enjoyed a patented period and or have long since paid for the R&D of the product and then some. This is not the case with a 4 month old design by a small company without a legal team nor finance for patents). It is legal to do what Robert did, but it lacks judgment and ethics…Robert is taking a chance with my business…again legal, but not very nice.

"Is it ok for commercial pedal producers to lurk in diy forums to gather ideas and free r&d? What if they sometimes post responses? What if they never post?"

This should be decided as a whole by the forum and ultimately the webmaster. I have been an occasional poster at various forums for about 5 years, my posts possibly being seen as "spamming" keep me from posting frequently.

“Manufacturer’s schematics make perfect 'building blocks' sources. (geofex articles being about the only non-commercial source of enlightment) Hope you have nothing against that kind of approach?

I would be happy to share my designs at some point. I had planned to use my “Tweaks page” for this purpose; Robert’s post of the DD has me re-thinking my tweaks page. I have serious doubts about any positive use can come from in lifting my tweaks ideas for use on his web page…ethics again. They are very well documented on my page and taking them served no useful purpose…except to keep people from having a need to go to my site to learn the DD tweaks.

The first time Ampage forum member Dan Haney showed up at my door I shared Tone Pump schematics with him after an agreement and a handshake, he then bought me dinner and since then we have remained friends…my guess is this is the type of “non-commercial source of enlightment” you are talking about. However some attempt to copy my work exactly for who knows what purpose and only 4 months after designing it is not really a fun thought for me. I believe Robert’s actions are legal in just about every country...Bit I don’t think we should use what is “legal” as a yardstick of what we should do…many things are very legal that are very ethically and morally wrong.

“How else can I learn this kind of stuff?”

There are books, GEO (free at this time!) Jack Orman has a CD that I have seen advertised. Craig Anderton has a wealth of knowledge available in paperback…I might even pen a book someday and sell it. Sometimes you have to pay for knowledge, I remember a Ben Franklin quote that goes something like “If you use your pocketbook to fill your head, your head will fill your pocketbook”. I think feeling entitled to my or anyone else’s knowledge is just that…a feeling of entitlement.

“”Solution: Try to post a scheme (of some design of yours - need not be commercial) on your website, give people what they want: Barber circ. design & a schematic 'from Barber'. By doing this your commercial design ideas will no longer be a forbidden fruit and not any longer seem soooo interesting for a curious DIY builder? Just a thought...””

This would take time that I just don’t have at the moment (anybody live in MD and want to stuff PCBs?). I was considering the idea of posting some of my current designs, and you can plainly see I have shared a good bit of knowledge about the DD already at my “tweaks Page”. Robert’s post has shown me that my work can be taken from my page, re-written and then posted…this keeps people from having as much need for my page (not in my best interest). Would you be willing to pay for my designs if I offered them like Jack Orman does?...seems pretty fair right?

No question it would be very hard for me to make agreements with people named anonymous…like “I post a cool schematic or two and anonymous promises not to post my commercial products schematics”…funny ring to eh?

Robert has responded to my email today and the DD post at this time has been removed from the site where I saw it. I will be emailing Robert later today regarding his questions and to thank him for removing the DD schematic. I hope we can put this matter to rest and get back to building.

Happy holidays,

Thank you for reading my words and please have an open mind.

In the future I will only be responding to people with names and a valid email address.

David Barber

12/27/2002 5:02 PM

Dan Haney

David Barber wrote:

quote:
"The first time Ampage forum member Dan Haney showed up at my door I shared Tone Pump schematics with him after an agreement and a handshake, he then bought me dinner and since then we have remained friends…my guess is this is the type of “non-commercial source of enlightment” you are talking about."

That was ~1998, wasn't it? The background is that we were looking in similar directions about overdrive pedals and were able to swap, test, and discard a few ideas that seemed interesting but were insignificant in practice, such as the use of polystyrene caps for input coupling. (Dave can tell the difference. I can't)

There was a period where I would simply find vendors for interesting components, acquire 100 pieces, and hand them to Dave for testing. Trust me, you do NOT want to exhaustively test for the sonic effects of different composition/quality capacitors and opamps. It's arduous, time-consuming, and one of the biggest reasons why boutique pedals are more interesting -- someone with good taste has already discarded the bad and marginal ideas.

I was entirely uninterested in building FX pedals for business or supplementary income; my interest was that of an obsessive hobbyist's. So, being demonstrably sympathetic and no threat to Dave's nascent FX pedal business, I was allowed to see a few of his schematics.

The part I don't remember is buying him dinner.

Verbal contracts over handshakes take a lot more effort to defend in court. Jerry Jones got the rights to make Danelectro guitars/sitars over a handshake with Nathaniel Daniels. He wasted two years of his life defending that right after someone flooded the market with Danelectro knock-offs. A signed and witnessed contract would have made the legal battle much shorter.

Yo, Dave. Ya wanna make it legal with a written non-disclosure ("ND") contract?

I'm game.

-drh
--

12/27/2002 9:34 PM
MJ Harnish	anybody live in MD and want to stuff PCBs?). Have you ever considered putting together DIY "kits" for your pedals? Based on the info you provide on your tweaks page, it seems that you're not really trying to hide the circuit and I would have to agree with you that trying to "pirate" a $99 pedal is not really a good use of the average builder's time. I was just thinking that you might find people who would be willing to pay money to build their own; basically you supply the critical parts and they do the work. I know I'd certainly be interested in this approach: Not that I don't have $99 to spend, but rather I hate waiting and derive a certain satisfaction in building stuff myself. If you didn't offer the enclosures, you could also prevent people from building the pedals and then trying to pass them off as "Barber built" ones. Just a thought... MJ

12/27/2002 9:34 PM

MJ Harnish

anybody live in MD and want to stuff PCBs?).

Have you ever considered putting together DIY "kits" for your pedals? Based on the info you provide on your tweaks page, it seems that you're not really trying to hide the circuit and I would have to agree with you that trying to "pirate" a $99 pedal is not really a good use of the average builder's time. I was just thinking that you might find people who would be willing to pay money to build their own; basically you supply the critical parts and they do the work. I know I'd certainly be interested in this approach: Not that I don't have $99 to spend, but rather I hate waiting and derive a certain satisfaction in building stuff myself.

If you didn't offer the enclosures, you could also prevent people from building the pedals and then trying to pass them off as "Barber built" ones. Just a thought...

MJ

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