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I hear ya, Nuke, but...

2/22/2001 3:53 PM
Dave Charneski	I hear ya, Nuke, but... ...there sure are a whole lot of world-class, virtuoso tone-meisters playing MV amps like the Shiva. Robben Ford and Larry Carlton come to mind. Dumbles are obviously master volume. And, interestingly, when Ford plays overseas, he uses master volume, red-knob "The Twin" amps. Many folks consider Jeff Beck a virtuoso (at what he does) and he plays MV JCM2000s. Jennifer Batten (who has landed gigs with the biggest in the business and can read and play anything you put in front of her) plays MV Peaveys, of all things. As for my experience with non-MV amps, I've never had problems getting great clean tones at small club volumes. The Route 66, for example, got gorgeous clean tones at lower volumes. Trouble is, I couldn't raise the volume knob anywhere near far enough to get the amp to breakup, so I used a Fulldrive 2 for distortion, which sounded horrible at low volumes, but fantastic at higher volumes. Perhaps I should have tried some different OD pedals and/or some different attenuators. As for Alan Haynes and the Vibro-King, keep some things in mind. 1.) Alan Hayne's "signature" tone is actually derived from a master volume amp, the SLO-100. I'm sure he has a wide collection of vintage and modern amps and enjoys playing them all. I suspect he pulls them out for the more informal dates, like the one you saw. 2.) I, too, have played the Vibro-King. That amp is designed to breakup at very low volumes. I've had them getting pretty crunchy in music stores with people carrying on conversations within 10 feet of me. The Route 66 was not like that at all. I, too, could probably get most of the tones I need in most of my clubs with a VK and a cord (although I cannot play as well as Haynes). 3.) Secondly, Alan Haynes probably didn't attempt to cover a wide range of material that required many different tones and textures and mant different levels. He probably did his own tunes and some standards which allowed him to stay within the capabilities of his gear. In my band, we need to cover a wide range of material. Some tunes require a loud clean tone and a heavily saturated tone at the same volume. You cannot do that with a guitar, cord and non-MV amp. 4.) Thirdly, Alan Haynes is a star and any small club that books him will not force him to turn down as low as they probably do for local, unsigned acts. Case in point. My bandmate saw Derek Trucks play at a medium-sized club in town that our band also plays. In fact, we played there the night before...and actually did a Trucks tune in honor of his visit the following night. Derek played an SG into a cord into a Super Reverb. Of course, he got some great tone, but my buddy said the amp volume was between 7-8! That's far louder than they've ever allowed us to play there! 5.) Alan Haynes was probably not playing with another guitarist (and neither was Trucks that night). This allows him to use his volume knob to get the amount of distortion he needs without concern for his volume level with respect to the other guitarist. In other words, he doesn't have to worry about a "rhythm" level and a "lead" level. I play with another guitarist and am rarely ever miked through a PA, so we both need to have the same "rhythm" and "lead" volumes in order to stay properly mixed. This is very difficult, if not impossible, to achieve with a guitar, a cord and non-MV amp. 6.) This item is closely related to #4. Alan Haynes and most pro acts are almost always miked and professionally mixed and monitored, so even when they do have multiple guitarists, the mains and monitors are adjusted to compensate one way or the other for varying amp levels so that the house and monitor mixes are balanced. My band does not have that luxury. We need to make sure the levels are perfect coming right off the stage. 7.) This last item is somewhat related to #2 and may be the most controversial. Alan Haynes probably did not play material that required him to make extremely rapid and accurate changes in tone or volume. I've carefully watched guys like Clapton and other blues players who "work the volume" knob to get their various distortion levels. Although they've gotten pretty skilled at making those on-the-fly changes, they still cannot do it as quickly and accurately as I need to do in some tunes. I sometimes to need to switch back and forth between "lead" level and "rhythm" level so rapidly, that no human could ever do it w/o a footswitch. It's not that I'm too lazy to learn how to work the volume knob. In fact, I prefer to use that method when I sit-in on strange gear. I'll tell the guitarist to give me a medium-gain lead tone and I'll typically do the rest with my volume knob. As for pure tonal issues, I'm still not totally convinced that a well-designed MV amp is inferior in any way to it's non-MV counterpart. At low levels, I think the Shiva clean tone is every bit as good as the Route 66 (for example). And, at the very loud volumes required to get the R66 breaking up, the Shiva also gets better and better sounding...to the point where it's probably a matter of taste as to which tone is "better". So, I think part of the reason many folks prefer the tone of non-MV amps over their MV counterparts is because they have to turn them up so loud to get the level of distortion they need. If they were to compare them to a well-designed MV amp at the same level, they might be quite surprised. Conversely, if they were to use an attenuator to bring the non-MV amp down to the levels normally played on the MV amp, the same revelations may be noted. I have done both of these experiments and have come to the conclusion that most of the tone we all desire is mainly a factor of how hard we drive the speaker system. At that point, any preferences noted between different amps largely fall into personal taste and/or stylistic requirements categories. Yes, I really dig the Komet MP3s and I'm sure I'd love it in person too. But, by the time I neutered it enough to play at the levels I need (via attenuators and/or pedals), would it really be any better at overdrive tones than amps like the Shiva? I don't know for sure, but if the Route 66 is any indication, the answer is "probably not". So, for most of us who are not signed professionals, I believe the main factor in choosing an amp is whether or not we we can get our tones at volumes low enough to play our venues. Dave

2/22/2001 3:53 PM

Dave Charneski

I hear ya, Nuke, but...

...there sure are a whole lot of world-class, virtuoso tone-meisters playing MV amps like the Shiva. Robben Ford and Larry Carlton come to mind. Dumbles are obviously master volume. And, interestingly, when Ford plays overseas, he uses master volume, red-knob "The Twin" amps. Many folks consider Jeff Beck a virtuoso (at what he does) and he plays MV JCM2000s. Jennifer Batten (who has landed gigs with the biggest in the business and can read and play anything you put in front of her) plays MV Peaveys, of all things.

As for my experience with non-MV amps, I've never had problems getting great clean tones at small club volumes. The Route 66, for example, got gorgeous clean tones at lower volumes. Trouble is, I couldn't raise the volume knob anywhere near far enough to get the amp to breakup, so I used a Fulldrive 2 for distortion, which sounded horrible at low volumes, but fantastic at higher volumes. Perhaps I should have tried some different OD pedals and/or some different attenuators.

As for Alan Haynes and the Vibro-King, keep some things in mind.

1.) Alan Hayne's "signature" tone is actually derived from a master volume amp, the SLO-100. I'm sure he has a wide collection of vintage and modern amps and enjoys playing them all. I suspect he pulls them out for the more informal dates, like the one you saw.

2.) I, too, have played the Vibro-King. That amp is designed to breakup at very low volumes. I've had them getting pretty crunchy in music stores with people carrying on conversations within 10 feet of me. The Route 66 was not like that at all. I, too, could probably get most of the tones I need in most of my clubs with a VK and a cord (although I cannot play as well as Haynes).

3.) Secondly, Alan Haynes probably didn't attempt to cover a wide range of material that required many different tones and textures and mant different levels. He probably did his own tunes and some standards which allowed him to stay within the capabilities of his gear. In my band, we need to cover a wide range of material. Some tunes require a loud clean tone *and* a heavily saturated tone at the same volume. You cannot do that with a guitar, cord and non-MV amp.

4.) Thirdly, Alan Haynes is a star and any small club that books him will not force him to turn down as low as they probably do for local, unsigned acts. Case in point. My bandmate saw Derek Trucks play at a medium-sized club in town that our band also plays. In fact, we played there the night before...and actually did a Trucks tune in honor of his visit the following night. Derek played an SG into a cord into a Super Reverb. Of course, he got some great tone, but my buddy said the amp volume was between 7-8! That's *far* louder than they've ever allowed *us* to play there!

5.) Alan Haynes was probably not playing with another guitarist (and neither was Trucks that night). This allows him to use his volume knob to get the amount of distortion he needs without concern for his volume level with respect to the other guitarist. In other words, he doesn't have to worry about a "rhythm" level and a "lead" level. I play with another guitarist and am rarely ever miked through a PA, so we both need to have the same "rhythm" and "lead" volumes in order to stay properly mixed. This is very difficult, if not impossible, to achieve with a guitar, a cord and non-MV amp.

6.) This item is closely related to #4. Alan Haynes and most pro acts are almost always miked and professionally mixed and monitored, so even when they *do* have multiple guitarists, the mains and monitors are adjusted to compensate one way or the other for varying amp levels so that the house and monitor mixes are balanced. My band does not have that luxury. We need to make sure the levels are perfect coming right off the stage.

7.) This last item is somewhat related to #2 and may be the most controversial. Alan Haynes probably did not play material that required him to make extremely rapid and *accurate* changes in tone or volume. I've carefully watched guys like Clapton and other blues players who "work the volume" knob to get their various distortion levels. Although they've gotten pretty skilled at making those on-the-fly changes, they still cannot do it as quickly and accurately as I need to do in some tunes. I sometimes to need to switch back and forth between "lead" level and "rhythm" level so rapidly, that no human could ever do it w/o a footswitch. It's not that I'm too lazy to learn how to work the volume knob. In fact, I *prefer* to use that method when I sit-in on strange gear. I'll tell the guitarist to give me a medium-gain lead tone and I'll typically do the rest with my volume knob.

As for pure tonal issues, I'm still not totally convinced that a well-designed MV amp is inferior in any way to it's non-MV counterpart. At low levels, I think the Shiva clean tone is every bit as good as the Route 66 (for example). And, at the very loud volumes required to get the R66 breaking up, the Shiva *also* gets better and better sounding...to the point where it's probably a matter of taste as to which tone is "better". So, I think part of the reason many folks prefer the tone of non-MV amps over their MV counterparts is because they have to turn them up so loud to get the level of distortion they need. If they were to compare them to a well-designed MV amp at the same level, they might be quite surprised. Conversely, if they were to use an attenuator to bring the non-MV amp *down* to the levels normally played on the MV amp, the same revelations may be noted.

I have done both of these experiments and have come to the conclusion that most of the tone we all desire is mainly a factor of how hard we drive the speaker system. At that point, any preferences noted between different amps largely fall into personal taste and/or stylistic requirements categories. Yes, I really dig the Komet MP3s and I'm sure I'd love it in person too. But, by the time I neutered it enough to play at the levels I need (via attenuators and/or pedals), would it really be any better at overdrive tones than amps like the Shiva? I don't know for sure, but if the Route 66 is any indication, the answer is "probably not".

So, for most of us who are not signed professionals, I believe the main factor in choosing an amp is whether or not we we can get our tones at volumes low enough to play our venues.

Dave

2/22/2001 5:07 PM
David U.	Dave, An amp designer told me that MV amps can be just as toneful as non-MV amps if enough care goes into the design of the preamp and that power tube or preamp tube distortion is really a matter of taste and preference. He also told me that on 6L6 amps, the power tubes really don't break up very much anyway. The main difference between "vintage" distortion, like on a Super Reverb, and the "modern" distortion of an SLO is that with the SR you get the phase inverter breaking up. The PI on the SLO comes after the master, so the master has to be up pretty high before you hear the PI distorting. Point being, preamp distortion can sound great. I can do the guitar volume knob thing with both my Soldano and Hiwatt, as well as my Princeton. Plus, I agree with you about the versatility. I've been in situations in clubs where I've had too much power, but I've also played places where I've needed more. It seems like an MV is a practical solution to this problem. For power tube crunch fans, it seems like Apollo amps and London Power might have pretty solutions to the "too loud" problem. regards, d

2/22/2001 5:07 PM

David U.

Dave,

An amp designer told me that MV amps can be just as toneful as non-MV amps if enough care goes into the design of the preamp and that power tube or preamp tube distortion is really a matter of taste and preference.

He also told me that on 6L6 amps, the power tubes really don't break up very much anyway. The main difference between "vintage" distortion, like on a Super Reverb, and the "modern" distortion of an SLO is that with the SR you get the phase inverter breaking up. The PI on the SLO comes after the master, so the master has to be up pretty high before you hear the PI distorting.

Point being, preamp distortion can sound great. I can do the guitar volume knob thing with both my Soldano and Hiwatt, as well as my Princeton. Plus, I agree with you about the versatility. I've been in situations in clubs where I've had too much power, but I've also played places where I've needed more. It seems like an MV is a practical solution to this problem.

For power tube crunch fans, it seems like Apollo amps and London Power might have pretty solutions to the "too loud" problem.

regards,

d

2/23/2001 6:17 AM
nuke	Well, I ain't talking about any miked amp high-end gig, it was Alan in a 3 piece band. A mike to sing into, one over the kit, probably one in the bass drum. He had fabulous tone, expressive tone, and he had at a volume level that was impressively more ear-friendly than the band who opened up before them. (I'm not doggin the earlier band, but the volume was a bit loud for the size of the place). Joe's Generic Bar is, well, a tin-roof shack! I'll completely and utterly disagree with you on what is do-able with a non-MV amp. He covered a variety of stuff and lets just say, the man gets many tones out of nothing more than his hands and the control of the instrument. Besides, I know lots and lots and lots of players who don't go at all for the MV thing. Take Carolyn Wonderland, who I saw Wed. Night at the Saxon Pub in Austin. She just plays a tele-thinline into a BF Pro Reverb. Great tone. (she had a chorus pedal too, but I'm talking about it). It doesn't hurt that she is very capable playing guitar as well as singing. (trumpet too!) Guy Forsyth sat in, again, no fuzz effects and had killer slide-tone on Carolyn's Pro Reverb amp. Scott in her band plays a lot of effects and I think he was using a HR DeVille. I admire Scott's playing, but I think his tone was suffering a bit. Just my opinion. (Sorry Scott, I'd never say bad things about you! You'll always play circles around me!!!) Some people work non-mv amps to great results, others don't. I can't pry a decent tone out of a Boogie with a crowbar and I just wonder why the hell anyone would want one. But there are people who do well on them and not vice versa.

2/23/2001 6:17 AM

nuke

Well, I ain't talking about any miked amp high-end gig, it was Alan in a 3 piece band. A mike to sing into, one over the kit, probably one in the bass drum.

He had fabulous tone, expressive tone, and he had at a volume level that was impressively more *ear-friendly* than the band who opened up before them. (I'm not doggin the earlier band, but the volume was a bit loud for the size of the place).

Joe's Generic Bar is, well, a tin-roof shack!

I'll completely and utterly disagree with you on what is do-able with a non-MV amp.

He covered a variety of stuff and lets just say, the man gets many tones out of nothing more than his hands and the control of the instrument.

Besides, I know lots and lots and lots of players who don't go at all for the MV thing. Take Carolyn Wonderland, who I saw Wed. Night at the Saxon Pub in Austin. She just plays a tele-thinline into a BF Pro Reverb. Great tone. (she had a chorus pedal too, but I'm talking about it). It doesn't hurt that she is very capable playing guitar as well as singing. (trumpet too!)

Guy Forsyth sat in, again, no fuzz effects and had killer slide-tone on Carolyn's Pro Reverb amp.

Scott in her band plays a lot of effects and I think he was using a HR DeVille. I admire Scott's playing, but I think his tone was suffering a bit. Just my opinion. (Sorry Scott, I'd never say bad things about you! You'll always play circles around me!!!)

Some people work non-mv amps to great results, others don't.

I can't pry a decent tone out of a Boogie with a crowbar and I just wonder why the hell anyone would want one. But there are people who do well on them and not vice versa.

2/23/2001 3:19 PM
Dave Charneski	"Well, I ain't talking about any miked amp high-end gig, it was Alan in a 3 piece band. A mike to sing into, one over the kit, probably one in the bass drum." This is the perfect arrangement for the gear Alan chose to use that night. As I mentioned, he didn't have to worry abut balancing his levels with another guitarist. In a trio, you can use your volume knob to select your distortion level and not worry about burying or getting buried by the other guitarist. "He had fabulous tone, expressive tone, and he had at a volume level that was impressively more ear-friendly than the band who opened up before them. Joe's Generic Bar is, well, a tin-roof shack! I'll completely and utterly disagree with you on what is do-able with a non-MV amp." Yes, as I mentioned in my post, the Vibro-King is a perfect amp for lower volume gigs because it breaks up so damn early...especially with a Les Paul! :>) Read my post again. I was painfully specific about what I thought a non-MV amp was capable of. I've used them too in exactly Haynes situation. In fact, I grew up on them! (I'm an old fart - 41). :>) My bet is that Alan chose the VK for that gig specifically because it breaks up at such a low volume. He would not have been able to do it (and get the same amount of distortion) with a Route 66. But, both the VK and Route 66 break down (versatility-wise) in the situations I detailed. Remember, Alan's main amp is a master volume amp! Another thing worth mentioning too is that many of the pros who use non-MV amps cart several of them to shows in order to get the tones/levels they need. Eric Johnson and Cris Duarte immediately come to mind. I have done that myself but eventually got tired of hauling the extra gear. :>) "He covered a variety of stuff and lets just say, the man gets many tones out of nothing more than his hands and the control of the instrument." I would never, for one second, diminish the role of Alan's musical gifts as a factor. However, physics is physics. Knowing how to apply them is also one of Alan's gifts! Between three different pickup selections (on a Paul anyways), a whole range of volume knob positions (two of them on a Paul) and the way you strum and/or pick and/or fret/bend notes, I am not surprised at all that he could wrest out a plethora of tones and timbres and do it in a smooth and natural way so as not to interfere with the flow of the music. I have done the same thing with non-MV amps, but of course in a more limited sense (because I am not gifted like Alan!). I've seen some pretty hot local blues/jazz players do the same thing with non-MV amps. And, if you listen carefully, they're really only getting a couple basic tones. It's just that they make whatever tone they have at the moment work. For example, one local player uses a 335, a cord and a Super Reverb. I caught him one night at a very small club that we also play. So, his volume was down quite a bit and his Super was just barely breaking up, if at all. Well, you could tell that he wasn't getting the sustain he normally was used to, but he plowed his way through and adjusted his playing the best he could to try to wrest whatever sustain he could out of the fairly clean tone he had. He made that tone work, although you could tell he wished he had more breakup and sustain. "Besides, I know lots and lots and lots of players who don't go at all for the MV thing. Take Carolyn Wonderland, who I saw Wed. Night at the Saxon Pub in Austin. She just plays a tele-thinline into a BF Pro Reverb. Great tone. (she had a chorus pedal too, but I'm talking about it). It doesn't hurt that she is very capable playing guitar as well as singing. (trumpet too!)" Most of the local players I know who go for the non-MV thing prefer fairly clean tones. In fact, most of 'em never touch their volume controls either. They play with one volume and one tone the whole night and just concentrate on their playing...which in some cases is just incredible. With experience, they've made that one tone and volume work. So, I'm not saying it can't be done. "I can't pry a decent tone out of a Boogie with a crowbar and I just wonder why the hell anyone would want one. But there are people who do well on them and not vice versa" I agree completely that ya gotta' match the amp (and guitar) to the player. Some guys can play anything and sound good. I can't play a Les Paul to save my life! As for amps, I can usually get what I need out of most of them...although people will commment that some sound better than others! Oh well, it's been fun discussing this whole issue! Dave

2/23/2001 3:19 PM

Dave Charneski

"Well, I ain't talking about any miked amp high-end gig, it was Alan in a 3 piece band. A mike to sing into, one over the kit, probably one in the bass drum."

This is the perfect arrangement for the gear
Alan chose to use that night. As I mentioned,
he didn't have to worry abut balancing his levels
with another guitarist. In a trio, you can use
your volume knob to select your distortion level
and not worry about burying or getting buried
by the other guitarist.

"He had fabulous tone, expressive tone, and he had at a volume level that was impressively more *ear-friendly* than the band who opened up before them. Joe's Generic Bar is, well, a tin-roof shack! I'll completely and utterly disagree with you on what is do-able with a non-MV amp."

Yes, as I mentioned in my post, the Vibro-King
is a perfect amp for lower volume gigs because
it breaks up so damn early...especially with
a Les Paul! :>) Read my post again. I was
painfully specific about what I thought a non-MV
amp was capable of. I've used them too in
exactly Haynes situation. In fact, I grew up
on them! (I'm an old fart - 41). :>) My bet
is that Alan chose the VK for that gig
*specifically* because it breaks up at such
a low volume. He would not have been able to
do it (and get the same amount of distortion)
with a Route 66. But, both the VK and Route 66
break down (versatility-wise) in the situations
I detailed. Remember, Alan's main amp is a
master volume amp!

Another thing worth mentioning too is that many
of the pros who use non-MV amps cart *several*
of them to shows in order to get the tones/levels
they need. Eric Johnson and Cris Duarte
immediately come to mind. I have done that myself
but eventually got tired of hauling the extra
gear. :>)

"He covered a variety of stuff and lets just say, the man gets many tones out of nothing more than his hands and the control of the instrument."

I would never, for one second, diminish the role
of Alan's musical gifts as a factor. However,
physics is physics. Knowing how to apply them
is also one of Alan's gifts! Between three
different pickup selections (on a Paul anyways),
a whole range of volume knob positions (two
of them on a Paul) and the way you strum and/or
pick and/or fret/bend notes, I am not surprised
at all that he could wrest out a plethora of
tones and timbres and do it in a smooth and
natural way so as not to interfere with the
flow of the music. I have done the same thing
with non-MV amps, but of course in a more
limited sense (because I am not gifted like
Alan!).

I've seen some pretty hot local
blues/jazz players do the same thing with non-MV
amps. And, if you listen carefully, they're
really only getting a couple basic tones. It's
just that they make whatever tone they have at
the moment work. For example, one local player
uses a 335, a cord and a Super Reverb. I caught
him one night at a very small club that we
also play. So, his volume was down quite a bit
and his Super was just *barely* breaking up,
if at all. Well, you could tell that he wasn't
getting the sustain he normally was used to, but
he plowed his way through and adjusted his playing
the best he could to try to wrest whatever sustain
he could out of the fairly clean tone he had. He
*made* that tone work, although you could tell
he wished he had more breakup and sustain.

"Besides, I know lots and lots and lots of players who don't go at all for the MV thing. Take Carolyn Wonderland, who I saw Wed. Night at the Saxon Pub in Austin. She just plays a
tele-thinline into a BF Pro Reverb. Great tone. (she had a chorus pedal too, but I'm talking about it). It doesn't hurt that she is very capable playing guitar as well as singing. (trumpet too!)"

Most of the local players I know who go for
the non-MV thing prefer fairly clean tones.
In fact, most of 'em never touch their volume
controls either. They play with one volume
and one tone the whole night and just concentrate
on their playing...which in some cases is just
incredible. With experience, they've made that
one tone and volume work. So, I'm not saying it
can't be done.

"I can't pry a decent tone out of a Boogie with a crowbar and I just wonder why the hell anyone would want one. But there are people who do well on them and not vice versa"

I agree completely that ya gotta' match the amp
(and guitar) to the player. Some guys can play
anything and sound good. I can't play a Les Paul
to save my life! As for amps, I can usually
get what I need out of most of them...although
people will commment that some sound better than
others!

Oh well, it's been fun discussing this whole
issue!

Dave

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