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Vintage threads from the first ten years

Re: Two Rock Amps: The NAMM Report

1/23/2001 8:41 AM
GouxMan	Re: Two Rock Amps: The NAMM Report Hey Gil, as you know I played the Emerald at the show, too. Here is a second opinion for others to consider. The amp behaves very much like a Dumble in overdrive mode. The touch sensitivity rivals the Dumble. The clean is fatter and smoother than the Dumble. The reverb sounded great. I felt the lead sound was a little buzzy, but that could well have been the low volume or Alnico speakers. Gil, I think your amps sound better at low volume than the K&M did, even though your amps have the internal taper set for relatively low gain. This could be a moot point if the K&M comes alive at real world volumes, which we could not try at NAMM. Under these volume restrictions I could not tell if the K&M has that illusive Dumble "character". They told me the amp was $5000. I understand your rational but disagree that it is a fair price, based simply on the glut of great boutique amps at half the price. Then again, something is worth what people will pay for it. It is a great amp, but in the absence of celebrity endorsements and eccentric rarity I would would fear for my investment. Others may not. GouxMan

1/23/2001 8:41 AM

GouxMan

Re: Two Rock Amps: The NAMM Report

Hey Gil, as you know I played the Emerald at the show, too. Here is a second opinion for others to consider.

The amp behaves very much like a Dumble in overdrive mode. The touch sensitivity rivals the Dumble. The clean is fatter and smoother than the Dumble. The reverb sounded great. I felt the lead sound was a little buzzy, but that could well have been the low volume or Alnico speakers. Gil, I think your amps sound better at low volume than the K&M did, even though your amps have the internal taper set for relatively low gain. This could be a moot point if the K&M comes alive at real world volumes, which we could not try at NAMM. Under these volume restrictions I could not tell if the K&M has that illusive Dumble "character". They told me the amp was $5000. I understand your rational but disagree that it is a fair price, based simply on the glut of great boutique amps at half the price. Then again, something is worth what people will pay for it. It is a great amp, but in the absence of celebrity endorsements and eccentric rarity I would would fear for my investment. Others may not. GouxMan

1/23/2001 2:12 PM
cat	Also when comparing to the T/R to the Dumble as you guys do is not fair since most dumbles are all different in depending on when it is built and how it is built (you guys know all this ) and also i would bet the Two rock amps at the show was a extra carefully tuned pieces to stun the namm visitors, I would guess that if Dumble would preparate his amps for a show like this then his amps would also be set up to stun at low volume ,dont you think? or maybe Dumble don«t care for the big volume sales and instead aiming for those who really can afford to pay for his services , I know one player who recently had an amp built by Dumble and he is really very pleased with the results, and the second hand value is great !! My 2c

1/23/2001 2:12 PM

cat

Also when comparing to the T/R to the Dumble as you guys do is not fair since most dumbles are all different in depending on when it is built and how it is built (you guys know all this ) and also i would bet the Two rock amps at the show was a extra carefully tuned pieces to stun the namm visitors, I would guess that if Dumble would preparate his amps for a show like this then his amps would also be set up to stun at low volume ,dont you think? or maybe Dumble don«t care for the big volume sales and instead aiming for those who really can afford to pay for his services , I know one player who recently had an amp built by Dumble and he is really very pleased with the results, and the second hand value is great !!

My 2c

1/23/2001 4:46 PM

Gil Ayan

Cat: no comparison is "fair." However, considering that between all the people who agreed the TR sounded very good we must have played a combined total of about 10-15 real Dumbles, so I am comfortable that we have a large enough sample to base our "educated" opinions on.

quote:
"i would bet the Two rock amps at the show was a extra carefully tuned pieces to stun the namm visitors, I would guess that if Dumble would preparate his amps for a show like this then his amps would also be set up to stun at low volume ,dont you think? "

That's not how things work, in my opinion. Of all the TR amps, there was one I didn't care for as much and there is a reason for that: it was a prototype and the design was different. It is hard to make an amp sound good at low volumes, period, and I don't believe anyone would put "mods" in an amp to make it sound good at NAMM volumes. Of course, I could be wrong about that, but I doubt it.

GouMan: thanks for the compliments on my amps! There are several ways to look at the price issue, and just as you mentioned other boutique amps for half as much, I had originally thought of the Dr. Z amps for a third of the TR pirce.

Anyway, I would too be fearful of my investment ON ANY AMP if I had to pay $5K for it -- unless there was a guarantee that the resale price would be at least fair, and that is seldom the case. To me, no amp is worth to me more than maybe 2K maximum (and I mean working amps, not museum/collection pieces), and considering the option to build just about anything for under a grand, maybe I should lower that 2K figure. $5K sound more like a reasonable price for a 10-year-old car for a teenage son (or daughter), for example.

Gil

1/23/2001 7:15 PM
cat	Gil , I guess you are right in a way, I just think if I put something up for sale/display at a show I sure would be conserned that it would sound the very best to get the possible customers on the hook,wouldn«t you ? maybe not tweak it for low volume but I am sure you know what I mean. %

1/23/2001 9:22 PM
Ed Rembold	Re:Characteristics of "Dumble Tone"? Guys, Is it possible that since so much time has past, since the "dumble" thing hit Ampage, That some of you who have Played the Real thing, built the clones And played other built/updated clones, Could say a few words about the characteristics of dumble clean and OD tone?? How does the dumble "clean" differ from say Fender BF "clean" ? How does the dumble "OD tone" differ from say the typical Marshall OD Tone" ? (please don't say "sounds like Robben Ford") Thanks, Ed R.

1/23/2001 9:22 PM

Ed Rembold

Re:Characteristics of "Dumble Tone"?

Guys,

Is it possible that since so much time has past,

since the "dumble" thing hit Ampage, That some of you who have Played the Real thing, built the clones And played other built/updated clones, Could say a few words about the characteristics of dumble clean and OD tone??

How does the dumble "clean" differ from say Fender BF "clean" ?

How does the dumble "OD tone" differ from say the typical Marshall OD Tone" ?

(please don't say "sounds like Robben Ford")

Thanks, Ed R.

1/23/2001 10:06 PM

Jim S.

Re:Characteristics of "Dumble Tone"?

quote:
"How does the dumble "clean" differ from say Fender BF "clean" ?"

Dumble clean has it's roots in the Fender blackface clean tone, but it's more even and refined. The highs, lows, and midrange are in better balance. The lows are still strong, but not in that typical tubby or farty way that Fenders exhibit. I'd say they're tighter sounding. The midrange is less scooped and doesn't have that typical Fender blackface nasalness. The trebles are clear and defined, but that Fendery ringiness is replaced by a more even chiminess that is somewhat reminiscent of the top end of a Vox AC30.

quote:
"How does the dumble "OD tone" differ from say the typical Marshall OD Tone" ?"

The Dumble OD is smoother and somewhat more compressed than a typical Marshall plexi or MV overdrive tone. It's more midrange focussed while the Marshall tends to exhibit very bright, crunchy (some might say "buzzy" or "fizzy") highs. Marshalls definitely give up a more aggressive rock sound. The thing about the Dumble OD tone is that, for a preamp generated overdrive, it is extremely dynamic and has lots of swirling harmonic activity. There are definitely elements of cranked Fender tweed and blackface amps in that tone, but they're expressed in a more refined way. I like to use phrases like "sweet and snarly" or "refined grind" to describe the Dumble OD sound.

Well that's my best shot an an explanation. It's hard to explain just using words. Maybe someone else has a different angle on how Dumbles sound.

1/24/2001 6:11 AM
GouxMan	Here is my take. The clean is similar to a blackface Fender but is stiffer, less warm. I have a theory that Howard tweeked his circuit to accomodate the lead tone to be solid, without the fartiness or high gain found in a Boogie of that era. The lead channel excels at lower gain settings, and can be set low enough that the lead and clean are barely different. From there the gain can be increased to taste, but will never go into the kind of high gain you get from a 100 plexi. In fact, it sounds nothing like the typical high gain "grind" found in a Marshall. The Dumble lead is sweeter, much more compressed and is a smaller, more contained sound. It is not particularly great for raunchy power chords, because it compresses, instead of smacking you the way an AC-30 or TopHat does. In the early 80's many players jumped on the Dumble bandwagon early on, only to sell their amps a year or two later when the Mark III simulclass or Soldanos came out. Many guys like Lukather moved on to higher gain amps. So what makes it so great, so different? I believe it is the touch sensitive lead sound. You can "play the amp" like an instrument. It will clean up with a light touch, and give you creamy sustain when you pick hard, WITHOUT ROLLING DOWN YOUR VOLUME. It loves both single coils and humbuckers,(unlike some of the previouly mentioned amps) It is a great amp for slide.(Lowell George) You can hear the clean very well on the first SRV album, and you can tell when he kicks in the Tube Screamer. There is one more thing that is hard to describe, but the amp just has its own sound. There is a boxy or phasey quality to it sometimes that has a lot of character. It sounds imperfect in a beautiful way. David Lindley on "Running on Empty" comes to mind. Hope this helps. (Or you could just listen to "Talk to Your Daughter"!) GouxMan

1/24/2001 6:11 AM

GouxMan

Here is my take. The clean is similar to a blackface Fender but is stiffer, less warm. I have a theory that Howard tweeked his circuit to accomodate the lead tone to be solid, without the fartiness or high gain found in a Boogie of that era. The lead channel excels at lower gain settings, and can be set low enough that the lead and clean are barely different. From there the gain can be increased to taste, but will never go into the kind of high gain you get from a 100 plexi. In fact, it sounds nothing like the typical high gain "grind" found in a Marshall. The Dumble lead is sweeter, much more compressed and is a smaller, more contained sound. It is not particularly great for raunchy power chords, because it compresses, instead of smacking you the way an AC-30 or TopHat does. In the early 80's many players jumped on the Dumble bandwagon early on, only to sell their amps a year or two later when the Mark III simulclass or Soldanos came out. Many guys like Lukather moved on to higher gain amps.

So what makes it so great, so different? I believe it is the touch sensitive lead sound. You can "play the amp" like an instrument. It will clean up with a light touch, and give you creamy sustain when you pick hard, WITHOUT ROLLING DOWN YOUR VOLUME. It loves both single coils and humbuckers,(unlike some of the previouly mentioned amps) It is a great amp for slide.(Lowell George) You can hear the clean very well on the first SRV album, and you can tell when he kicks in the Tube Screamer.

There is one more thing that is hard to describe, but the amp just has its own sound. There is a boxy or phasey quality to it sometimes that has a lot of character. It sounds imperfect in a beautiful way. David Lindley on "Running on Empty" comes to mind. Hope this helps. (Or you could just listen to "Talk to Your Daughter"!) GouxMan

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