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Vintage threads from the first ten years

Re: We need to take control!

4/9/2000 7:55 PM
Farrow	Re: We need to take control! >>I don't know too many guitarists who play with a SS amp, and the one's who do, either wine about what a piece of krap they're playing through, or they just aren't that into playing, have no cash, &/or know nothing at all about gear (& those people dont buy much gear anyhow). I think it really boild down to what you're after. I have a few old Kustom amps that really do sound better to me than many tube amps. I play a K150 (75W) head with rem, pitch vibrato, and reverb thru a 2x12 Kustom cab (loaded w/ Vintage 30's) live because it never breaks down, always sounds good, and looks awesome. It also sounds just as killer on "1" as it does on "8," which is a big plus if you have to play smaller places without a PA. On my tube amps, when the volume is lowered, the tone is compromised. Please refrain from making snap judgements about my talent, skill, and knowledge. No offense meant, I'm sure, but I love my SS amps for the same reasons I love my tube amps - they make me sound the way I want to. I have never owned an amp that has as good a clean, "Twin Reverb" tone as my Kustom - not even my real Twin! So it really is in the ear of the beholder. Just my 2 cents. Farrow http://surf.to/pharaohamps

4/9/2000 7:55 PM

Farrow

Re: We need to take control!

>>I don't know too many guitarists who play with a SS amp, and the one's who do, either wine about what a piece of krap they're playing through, or they just aren't that into playing, have no cash, &/or know nothing at all about gear (& those people dont buy much gear anyhow).

I think it really boild down to what you're after. I have a few old Kustom amps that really do sound better to me than many tube amps. I play a K150 (75W) head with rem, pitch vibrato, and reverb thru a 2x12 Kustom cab (loaded w/ Vintage 30's) live because it never breaks down, always sounds good, and looks awesome. It also sounds just as killer on "1" as it does on "8," which is a big plus if you have to play smaller places without a PA. On my tube amps, when the volume is lowered, the tone is compromised. Please refrain from making snap judgements about my talent, skill, and knowledge. No offense meant, I'm sure, but I love my SS amps for the same reasons I love my tube amps - they make me sound the way I want to. I have never owned an amp that has as good a clean, "Twin Reverb" tone as my Kustom - not even my real Twin! So it really is in the ear of the beholder.

Just my 2 cents.

Farrow
http://surf.to/pharaohamps

4/11/2000 3:09 AM
Jeff S	Sorry Farrow. That wasn't meant to be a judgement or universal truth, it was simply meant to be an observation. I didn't mean to offend anybody, or pass judgement on their personal taste. Take it easy. Jeff

4/6/2000 4:53 PM
sj	Well said Pseudo!

4/7/2000 6:18 PM
SpeedRacer	>>starting an electronics company would probably be as trivial as starting an automobile company. Starting an electronics company is a world easier and about 3 billion cheaper (based on the $3 bil is cost to start Saturn) >> The current players are so ingrained that an upstart would be nothing more than a novelty. Tell that to the Dr Z's, Victorias, Matchless, etc in the world. I don't consider any of them a novelty (and yes I know that Matchless went under, but that was cash flow physics, not their products..) >>They own all the patents. They being Boogie I guess? Most of the circuitry is public domain. I would not worry about it. Besides, there are plenty of new(old) things to do. Many of which you will see here.. cascodes, pentodes, alternate output configurations, etc. >>They have all the distribution channels. And the upstart has the internet. >>They buy in massive quantities to cut their materials costs. And a small builder would be a fool to compete on cost. You compete on quality. You go into bus BC you don't like what's out there and feel you can do it better. If you're clever, you can build a better amp and still have it be affordable (like Z for example who has models well under $1k) >>They own their factories and write them off ..as you write off your equipment etc. >>They have diverse product lines so that they aren't dependent on the success of a single product.<< They also depend on the revenue from all those products bc they have more mouths to feed (overhead).. The clever ones (like Fender) take one idea and improvise on it. All the BF amps are basically the same (arguably anyhow) with some tweaks here and there. The 100W Marshall is the same as the 50W with a different pair of trannies. But nicer margins! The tricks are all out there, all as old as the hills and equally applicable by small fry and myopic conglomerate alike. You have the advantage of speed, creativity, and frankly Hunger.. You don't have to prove your vision to the executive board.. you just have to buck up and put your money where your vision is. >>I agree it would be a blast to do this for a living. But unfortunately, businesses survive or fail because of their ability to sell products and make a profit. Tone, sadly enough, doesn't really have anything to do with it. But tone is why you succeed and what you are selling. Look at the amps, guitars, etc. that are highly coveted 30 years later.. and current production units that are as well. what they have in common is that they do what counts (make music) better than what else is out there. >>Here's the challenge: Bring to market a tube amp that UNDENIABLY sounds better than any other, never breaks down, can be built by the dozens or hundreds per day, and still costs less than anything comparably sized. I think it's been done... - just another perspective.. I don't mean to single you out in any way! (you just wrote the response that got me thinking.. thank you btw!)

4/7/2000 6:18 PM

SpeedRacer

>>starting an electronics company would probably be as trivial as starting an automobile company.

Starting an electronics company is a world easier and about 3 billion cheaper (based on the $3 bil is cost to start Saturn) ;-)

>> The current players are so ingrained that an upstart would be nothing more than a novelty.

Tell that to the Dr Z's, Victorias, Matchless, etc in the world. I don't consider any of them a novelty (and yes I know that Matchless went under, but that was cash flow physics, not their products..)

>>They own all the patents.

They being Boogie I guess? :-)

Most of the circuitry is public domain. I would not worry about it. Besides, there are plenty of new(old) things to do. Many of which you will see here.. cascodes, pentodes, alternate output configurations, etc.

>>They have all the distribution channels.

And the upstart has the internet.

>>They buy in massive quantities to cut their materials costs.

And a small builder would be a fool to compete on cost. You compete on quality. You go into bus BC you don't like what's out there and feel you can do it better. If you're clever, you can build a better amp and still have it be affordable (like Z for example who has models well under $1k)

>>They own their factories and write them off

..as you write off your equipment etc.

>>They have diverse product lines so
that they aren't dependent on the success of a single product.<<

They also depend on the revenue from all those products bc they have more mouths to feed (overhead).. The clever ones (like Fender) take one idea and improvise on it. All the BF amps are basically the same (arguably anyhow) with some tweaks here and there. The 100W Marshall is the same as the 50W with a different pair of trannies. But nicer margins! The tricks are all out there, all as old as the hills and equally applicable by small fry and myopic conglomerate alike. You have the advantage of speed, creativity, and frankly Hunger.. You don't have to prove your vision to the executive board.. you just have to buck up and put your money where your vision is.

>>I agree it would be a blast to do this for a living. But unfortunately, businesses survive or fail because of their ability to sell products and make a profit. Tone, sadly enough, doesn't
really have anything to do with it.

But tone is *why* you succeed and *what* you are selling. Look at the amps, guitars, etc. that are highly coveted 30 years later.. and current production units that are as well. what they have in common is that they do what counts (make music) better than what else is out there.

>>Here's the challenge: Bring to market a tube amp that UNDENIABLY sounds better than any other, never breaks down, can be built by the dozens or hundreds per day, and still costs less than anything comparably sized.

I think it's been done...

- just another perspective.. I don't mean to single you out in any way! (you just wrote the response that got me thinking.. thank you btw!)

4/7/2000 7:36 PM

Rebel420

quote:
"And a small builder would be a fool to compete on cost. You compete on quality. You go into bus BC you don't like what's out there and feel you can do it better. If you're clever, you can build a better amp and still have it be affordable (like Z for example who has models well under $1k)"

You are the 3rd person I've heard say this this week.... 1 was directly toward me when I told about starting my own busines on the side, another was the president of hte company i work for in a meeing to marketing... encouraging us NOT to cut prices, rather use our advantages, and since our business is approaching fortune 500size fast, I'd say taht is good advice from him... and now you.... Guess I should feel more confident in selling a bit higher

4/7/2000 9:01 PM
Obvious Pseudonym	just another perspective.. I don't mean to single you out in any way! (you just wrote the response that got me thinking.. thank you btw!) That's the idea. With a stupid handle like Obvious Pseudonym how could I possibly be offended at being singled out! You make some great comments. I agree that the internet is virtually untapped for distribution for the large companies. This WILL be where a smaller company makes its mark. But here's the internet challenge: Who's going to buy an amp unheard over the internet. If tone is the major selling point of this hypothetical amp, how do you get people to hear it. It's kind of like buying art in a blackout. Also, your point is well taken about Dr Z and Victoria and the like, but I also have to say, when was the last time you saw any of this stuff in your local MegaDealSuperSaver Music store? Fender, Peavey, Marshall pretty much get the floor space. Tone freaks and well financed/budgeted studios will seek out and pick up these items, but until it's a no brainer for Joe Teen Wannabe to go to Guitar Center and pick up your amp for a couple bills of his hard earned paper route money so that he can bang out the latest Perl Jamb, you'll have a hard time developing "mindshare" (ooh, Silicon Valley IPO jargon!) This, I believe, is the legacy of the eighties - appeal to the lowest common denominator at any cost. Somewhere around that time I think many companies acknowledged that they had to make products for people who weren't necessarily musicians, and that in doing so could make a lot of money. How many kinds of stompbox were there before the eighties? How many distortion devices alone are there now? It's like a cambrian explosion. The whole "grunge" thing didn't help either... I suppose you don't have to sell hundreds of thousands of unit a year to be successful, but it would sure help you sleep at night. Obvious

4/7/2000 9:01 PM

Obvious Pseudonym

just another perspective.. I don't mean to single you out in any way! (you just wrote the response that got me thinking.. thank you btw!)

That's the idea. With a stupid handle like Obvious Pseudonym how could I possibly be offended at being singled out!

You make some great comments.

I agree that the internet is virtually untapped for distribution for the large companies. This WILL be where a smaller company makes its mark. But here's the internet challenge: Who's going to buy an amp unheard over the internet. If tone is the major selling point of this hypothetical amp, how do you get people to hear it. It's kind of like buying art in a blackout.

Also, your point is well taken about Dr Z and Victoria and the like, but I also have to say, when was the last time you saw any of this stuff in your local MegaDealSuperSaver Music store? Fender, Peavey, Marshall pretty much get the floor space. Tone freaks and well financed/budgeted studios will seek out and pick up these items, but until it's a no brainer for Joe Teen Wannabe to go to Guitar Center and pick up your amp for a couple bills of his hard earned paper route money so that he can bang out the latest Perl Jamb, you'll have a hard time developing "mindshare" (ooh, Silicon Valley IPO jargon!) This, I believe, is the legacy of the eighties - appeal to the lowest common denominator at any cost. Somewhere around that time I think many companies acknowledged that they had to make products for people who weren't necessarily musicians, and that in doing so could make a lot of money. How many kinds of stompbox were there before the eighties? How many distortion devices alone are there now? It's like a cambrian explosion. The whole "grunge" thing didn't help either...

I suppose you don't have to sell hundreds of thousands of unit a year to be successful, but it would sure help you sleep at night.

Obvious

4/6/2000 4:08 AM
Jeff S	Hello All, Quick note. I just realized that I didn't mention this in my orignial post inquiring about interest in starting up a guitar electronics company; but, I'm not talking about building only tube amps. All guitar electronics from stompboxes (mostly SS), to onboard preamps, to tuners, to the sky's the limit. I've gotten a few e-mails (I'm really glad to see that there's interest in this) and it appears that I gave the impression that I was only interested in tube amps--not so. Sorry that I was so vague. Take Care. Jeff S.

4/6/2000 4:08 AM

Jeff S

Hello All,

Quick note. I just realized that I didn't mention this in my orignial post inquiring about interest in starting up a guitar electronics company; but, I'm not talking about building only tube amps. All guitar electronics from stompboxes (mostly SS), to onboard preamps, to tuners, to the sky's the limit. I've gotten a few e-mails (I'm really glad to see that there's interest in this) and it appears that I gave the impression that I was only interested in tube amps--not so. Sorry that I was so vague. Take Care.

Jeff S.

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