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wouldn't it be great

4/5/2000 7:40 PM
kg	wouldn't it be great so last night i dragged my antisocial ass out of the house to go down to lupo's heartbreak hotel in providence, ri, to see the rollins band live. lupo's is where the dave matthews band recorded the live version of "ants walking," which sounds great. the acoustics in there are pretty good; when i played in the joint i remember the snare sounded particularly full with a nice decay. in any event the band was tight and all--not the same lineup as before (with sim cain and chris haskett). there was a completely new band behind old hank. the drummer was very cerebral, which was nice; he kept a solid groove going while simultaneously mixing it up. i wasn't terribly impressed with the guitar player or the bassist. they were tight but somewhat predictable. henry was, as always, henry. so as i stood there, enjoying my drugs and listening to the mix in the room, it struck me that it was somewhat painful to listen to. now, you all know i've got a fucking 600w guitar amplifier, so i _know_ what loud is. this sound in the club wasn't loud so much as it was annoying, if you can dig what i'm saying. it wasn't the PRESSURE of the sound, it was the timbre, the character, the tone. sure, there were racks and racks of humming solid state power amps. i didn't see many clip lights flashing. the graphic eq's didn't seem to be horrendously set up. so what the fuck? why does it have to sound like shit? it was PAINFUL to listen to, ferchristssake. so i thought: oh, wouldn't it be great if every club had an honest to god big ass tube amp powering the mains? a tube amp that only sounded bigger, raw-er, ballsier and more magnificent as you cranked it up? bands would come to know it as a great club to play in. i am SURE you could hear the difference, and it wouldn't be for the worse. most of the tin-eared audience could hear it too, for that matter. they woudn't know what it WAS, just that the sound was right fucking there. two 1kw monoblocks would fit the bill.. they'd EASILY replace ss amps with 4 times the power. hell, you could use some ceramic transmitting triodes to do the dirty-work--they'd last for years in such an application, where they're not getting bounced around all the time. i dunno. i know in my heart of hearts that live music could sound even BETTER if they used some real goddamned amps to do the job--big ass tube amps. call me a dreamer. kg

4/5/2000 7:40 PM

wouldn't it be great

so last night i dragged my antisocial ass out of the house to go down to lupo's heartbreak hotel in providence, ri, to see the rollins band live.

lupo's is where the dave matthews band recorded the live version of "ants walking," which sounds great. the acoustics in there are pretty good; when i played in the joint i remember the snare sounded particularly full with a nice decay.

in any event the band was tight and all--not the same lineup as before (with sim cain and chris haskett). there was a completely new band behind old hank. the drummer was very cerebral, which was nice; he kept a solid groove going while simultaneously mixing it up. i wasn't terribly impressed with the guitar player or the bassist. they were tight but somewhat predictable. henry was, as always, henry.

so

as i stood there, enjoying my drugs and listening to the mix in the room, it struck me that it was somewhat painful to listen to.

now, you all know i've got a fucking 600w guitar amplifier, so i _know_ what loud is. this sound in the club wasn't loud so much as it was annoying, if you can dig what i'm saying. it wasn't the PRESSURE of the sound, it was the timbre, the character, the tone.

sure, there were racks and racks of humming solid state power amps. i didn't see many clip lights flashing. the graphic eq's didn't seem to be horrendously set up. so what the fuck? why does it have to sound like shit? it was PAINFUL to listen to, ferchristssake.

so i thought:

oh, wouldn't it be great if every club had an honest to god big ass tube amp powering the mains? a tube amp that only sounded bigger, raw-er, ballsier and more magnificent as you cranked it up? bands would come to know it as a great club to play in. i am SURE you could hear the difference, and it wouldn't be for the worse. most of the tin-eared audience could hear it too, for that matter. they woudn't know what it WAS, just that the sound was right fucking there.

two 1kw monoblocks would fit the bill.. they'd EASILY replace ss amps with 4 times the power. hell, you could use some ceramic transmitting triodes to do the dirty-work--they'd last for years in such an application, where they're not getting bounced around all the time.

i dunno.

i know in my heart of hearts that live music could sound even BETTER if they used some real goddamned amps to do the job--big ass tube amps.

call me a dreamer.

kg

4/5/2000 8:36 PM
Jeff S	We need to take control! Its too bad that the engineers and physicists of the world have all but abandoned tubes. According to the specs and simulations, ss is better. What all these people forget is that good specs dont always equate to good musical quality. The real bitch of it is that these tube disbelievers and number slaves are the people who are designing much of our gear. Why? Doesn't make much sense to me. There's enough talent, knowledge, skill, and passion among us (us being those on this BBS) to make some amazing gear. Anyone here ever considered starting a guitar electronics company? As I'll graduating college in a few months with no real plans I've been giving the idea serious consideration--seems like it would be one of the best jobs I can think of. To the disappointment of my parents, I am serious about this. Its not a one-man thing, though; and Im not as knowledgeable and experienced with this stuff as I know many of you are. So, if anyone out there thinks this is an interesting proposition, throw up a post or send me an email (jstanawa@vt.edu), and we'll talk about it--I'd love to hear some responses on this one. With the power of will, intellect, and creativity this could come to fruition, and be successfull. Jeff S.

4/5/2000 8:36 PM

Jeff S

We need to take control!

Its too bad that the engineers and physicists of the world have all but abandoned tubes. According to the specs and simulations, ss is better. What all these people forget is that good specs dont always equate to good musical quality. The real bitch of it is that these tube disbelievers and number slaves are the people who are designing much of our gear. Why? Doesn't make much sense to me. There's enough talent, knowledge, skill, and passion among us (us being those on this BBS) to make some amazing gear. Anyone here ever considered starting a guitar electronics company? As I'll graduating college in a few months with no real plans I've been giving the idea serious consideration--seems like it would be one of the best jobs I can think of. To the disappointment of my parents, I am serious about this. Its not a one-man thing, though; and Im not as knowledgeable and experienced with this stuff as I know many of you are. So, if anyone out there thinks this is an interesting proposition, throw up a post or send me an email (jstanawa@vt.edu), and we'll talk about it--I'd love to hear some responses on this one. With the power of will, intellect, and creativity this could come to fruition, and be successfull.

Jeff S.

4/5/2000 9:52 PM
Obvious Pseudonym	I hate to be the cynic, but talent, knowledge, skill, passion, will, intellect, and creativity pale in comparison to large piles of cash. Why do tube disbelievers and number slaves build our gear? Because tube gear is expensive and poses a greater safety liability than SS. The tonal quality / cost ratio is not an attractive number to accountants and venture capitalists. Leo Fender did not set out to build classic amps. He built amps using commonly available run-of-the-mill parts with technology that was current for the time. He wasn't cutting edge. His circuits were so common knowledge that he never bothered to patent any of them. Starting an electronics company would probably be as trivial as starting an automobile company. The current players are so ingrained that an upstart would be nothing more than a novelty. They own all the patents. They have all the distribution channels. They buy in massive quantities to cut their materials costs. They own their factories and write them off, or they use dirt cheap offshore labor. They have diverse product lines so that they aren't dependent on the success of a single product. I agree it would be a blast to do this for a living. But unfortunately, businesses survive or fail because of their ability to sell products and make a profit. Tone, sadly enough, doesn't really have anything to do with it. Here's the challenge: Bring to market a tube amp that UNDENIABLY sounds better than any other, never breaks down, can be built by the dozens or hundreds per day, and still costs less than anything comparably sized. Then throw away all self respect and whore your company to the investors and the masses. And if the wind blows right, and you get lucky you might actually be successfull for a couple years. Pragmatically yours, Obvious

4/5/2000 9:52 PM

Obvious Pseudonym

I hate to be the cynic, but talent, knowledge, skill, passion, will, intellect, and creativity pale in comparison to large piles of cash. Why do tube disbelievers and number slaves build our gear? Because tube gear is expensive and poses a greater safety liability than SS. The tonal quality / cost ratio is not an attractive number to accountants and venture capitalists. Leo Fender did not set out to build classic amps. He built amps using commonly available run-of-the-mill parts with technology that was current for the time. He wasn't cutting edge. His circuits were so common knowledge that he never bothered to patent any of them.

Starting an electronics company would probably be as trivial as starting an automobile company. The current players are so ingrained that an upstart would be nothing more than a novelty. They own all the patents. They have all the distribution channels. They buy in massive quantities to cut their materials costs. They own their factories and write them off, or they use dirt cheap offshore labor. They have diverse product lines so that they aren't dependent on the success of a single product.

I agree it would be a blast to do this for a living. But unfortunately, businesses survive or fail because of their ability to sell products and make a profit. Tone, sadly enough, doesn't really have anything to do with it.

Here's the challenge: Bring to market a tube amp that UNDENIABLY sounds better than any other, never breaks down, can be built by the dozens or hundreds per day, and still costs less than anything comparably sized. Then throw away all self respect and whore your company to the investors and the masses. And if the wind blows right, and you get lucky you might actually be successfull for a couple years.

Pragmatically yours,

Obvious

4/5/2000 10:48 PM
Jeff S	I definitly agree that the bottom dollar is king. I also agree that the big businesses have a huge upper-hand and competitive advantage. But, thats an obstacle not unbreakable wall. As for the tube thing. I think tube amps are the only amps as far as guitars go, and so do many (probably most) guitarists--I don't know too many guitarists who play with a SS amp, and the one's who do, either wine about what a piece of krap they're playing through, or they just aren't that into playing, have no cash, &/or know nothing at all about gear (& those people dont buy much gear anyhow). Note, though, that I'm not suggesting only tube products. IMHO, SS is great for most of the signal path, just not in the power section. I dont think that stompboxes need to be tube--I don't dont own, or even really desire, any tube based effects. Even for guitar amps, I think that a SS preamp section is fine. Would it take a ton of hard work, dedication, business smarts, etc...? Yes, of course it would. But it can be done (and has been done before), and there is a market out there for reasonably priced quality gear. In some cases, as with vintage effects for example, equipment prices are outrageosly high, and a similar piece could be sold for far less, even with the increased production costs associated with a smaller company. Ive made copies of stompboxes that sell for hundreds of dollars for less than $20--thats with no bulk discount at all. If you consider the markup on most of these products its mind-boggeling. I used to work at a music store and could buy things at cost, so I've seen what the wholesale prices are. Given that, and what it costs to design, build, market, and distribute a product, I would guess that the big guitar electronics companies make at least 300% profit--of course, that's just an educated guess (I'll look into it, and get the real figures). I appreciate your down-to-earth and realistic perspective, and I agree with your assessment of the difficulties involved in such an undertaking, but sometimes you have to have a vision or dream, and take a risk (it keeps life interesting). Thanks for your input, though (you've got me thinking like an accountant now--not a thought process I fancy), a good dose of reason is always helpful . Take care. Jeff S.

4/5/2000 10:48 PM

Jeff S

I definitly agree that the bottom dollar is king. I also agree that the big businesses have a huge upper-hand and competitive advantage. But, thats an obstacle not unbreakable wall.

As for the tube thing. I think tube amps are the only amps as far as guitars go, and so do many (probably most) guitarists--I don't know too many guitarists who play with a SS amp, and the one's who do, either wine about what a piece of krap they're playing through, or they just aren't that into playing, have no cash, &/or know nothing at all about gear (& those people dont buy much gear anyhow). Note, though, that I'm not suggesting only tube products. IMHO, SS is great for most of the signal path, just not in the power section. I dont think that stompboxes need to be tube--I don't dont own, or even really desire, any tube based effects. Even for guitar amps, I think that a SS preamp section is fine.

Would it take a ton of hard work, dedication, business smarts, etc...? Yes, of course it would. But it can be done (and has been done before), and there is a market out there for reasonably priced quality gear. In some cases, as with vintage effects for example, equipment prices are outrageosly high, and a similar piece could be sold for far less, even with the increased production costs associated with a smaller company. Ive made copies of stompboxes that sell for hundreds of dollars for less than $20--thats with no bulk discount at all. If you consider the markup on most of these products its mind-boggeling. I used to work at a music store and could buy things at cost, so I've seen what the wholesale prices are. Given that, and what it costs to design, build, market, and distribute a product, I would guess that the big guitar electronics companies make at least 300% profit--of course, that's just an educated guess (I'll look into it, and get the real figures).

I appreciate your down-to-earth and realistic perspective, and I agree with your assessment of the difficulties involved in such an undertaking, but sometimes you have to have a vision or dream, and take a risk (it keeps life interesting). Thanks for your input, though (you've got me thinking like an accountant now--not a thought process I fancy), a good dose of reason is always helpful

. Take care.

Jeff S.

4/5/2000 11:40 PM
Obvious Pseudonym	As long as you CAN think like an accountant you'll do OK. Risk and vision are good things. They are what keep you looking forward. Doing the safe and practical, you tend to dwell on the past. Also, if you're young and responsibility free (no wife, no kids, no mortgage) this is exactly the time to try something "crazy" or ambitious. And also note how the big companies are having to respond to the trend of boutique amps. Peavey's (Tweed) Classic line, Fender's reissues and Custom Shop for example. Carpe diem! Obvious

4/5/2000 11:40 PM

Obvious Pseudonym

As long as you CAN think like an accountant you'll do OK.

Risk and vision are good things. They are what keep you looking forward. Doing the safe and practical, you tend to dwell on the past.

Also, if you're young and responsibility free (no wife, no kids, no mortgage) this is exactly the time to try something "crazy" or ambitious. And also note how the big companies are having to respond to the trend of boutique amps. Peavey's (Tweed) Classic line, Fender's reissues and Custom Shop for example.

Carpe diem!

Obvious

4/6/2000 3:36 AM
Rob P.	Jeff, This is something I've though about for a while - I've only been into the tube amp thing for a year or two, and I've just graduated from uni - mechanical engineering if it matters. I would love to start a company building amps, just like you suggest, but I can't seem to think of a practical way to do it. I think there's definitely a market out there for decently priced, good quality amps - but I know nothing of marketing, so I wouldn't know how to sell it. That may be part of the problem - I think (correct me if I'm wrong) that most people here are amp techs or engineers or people with a technical background, who possibly don't have as much experience with the sales side of things. (I'm trying really hard not to step on anyone's toes!) I live in Australia, which doesn't really help my situation, since the market here is so much smaller than in the states. just thinking out loud... Rob

4/6/2000 3:36 AM

Rob P.

Jeff,

This is something I've though about for a while - I've only been into the tube amp thing for a year or two, and I've just graduated from uni - mechanical engineering if it matters.

I would love to start a company building amps, just like you suggest, but I can't seem to think of a practical way to do it. I think there's definitely a market out there for decently priced, good quality amps - but I know nothing of marketing, so I wouldn't know how to sell it.

That may be part of the problem - I think (correct me if I'm wrong) that most people here are amp techs or engineers or people with a technical background, who possibly don't have as much experience with the sales side of things. (I'm trying really hard not to step on anyone's toes!)

I live in Australia, which doesn't really help my situation, since the market here is so much smaller than in the states.

just thinking out loud...

Rob

4/6/2000 4:46 AM
Jeff S	Hi Rob, I've been mulling over the logistics of this start-up for a while, and think it can be done. It certianly is not going to be an over-night, get rich quick thing; its going to take a good amount of time and effort before there's a paycheck to be had (ie, cant quit the day job yet). As for the business end of it. It would be ideal if we could find an interested businessman by day, gear techie by night--Im not holding my breath though. Nevertheless, I know a little bit amount about business, and I have a bunch of friends who are business, marketing, and finance majors that would help out. If this thing looks like its going to happen, I'll put down the soldering iron for a few weeks, and pick up some books on business and marketing. Not to sound cocky, but I've seen the homework that business and marketing majors do, and it's a joke--not exactly quantum physics . Also, my parents own there own business, and though they don't dig this venture, they would be willing to give me some advice. That alone should be enough to get the ball rolling--if things come together (and we actually see a profit) we could always hire a few suits, but that's distant future talk. I'd like to learn about all the relavent interests, skills, knowledge, experience, thoughts, ideas, etc... of everyone that's interested so we can see where we stand. If you could send me an e-mail it would be great (jstanawa@vt.edu). It's great to see that there's interest in this endevour--looks like I'm not the only one whose been thinking about doing something like this. Take care. Jeff S.

4/6/2000 4:46 AM

Jeff S

Hi Rob,

I've been mulling over the logistics of this start-up for a while, and think it can be done. It certianly is not going to be an over-night, get rich quick thing; its going to take a good amount of time and effort before there's a paycheck to be had (ie, cant quit the day job yet).

As for the business end of it. It would be ideal if we could find an interested businessman by day, gear techie by night--Im not holding my breath though. Nevertheless, I know a little bit amount about business, and I have a bunch of friends who are business, marketing, and finance majors that would help out. If this thing looks like its going to happen, I'll put down the soldering iron for a few weeks, and pick up some books on business and marketing. Not to sound cocky, but I've seen the homework that business and marketing majors do, and it's a joke--not exactly quantum physics

. Also, my parents own there own business, and though they don't dig this venture, they would be willing to give me some advice. That alone should be enough to get the ball rolling--if things come together (and we actually see a profit) we could always hire a few suits, but that's distant future talk.

I'd like to learn about all the relavent interests, skills, knowledge, experience, thoughts, ideas, etc... of everyone that's interested so we can see where we stand. If you could send me an e-mail it would be great (jstanawa@vt.edu). It's great to see that there's interest in this endevour--looks like I'm not the only one whose been thinking about doing something like this. Take care.

Jeff S.

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