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What about boogie mark 1 low end Gil?


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3/23/2000 8:05 AM
Marcel B
What about boogie mark 1 low end Gil?
Gil,or and others  
I read some replys to previous forum questions regarding the fact that boogie mark 1 reissues can farth a lot.You sayd it was due to the .047 microfarad interstage caps.But my original mk 1 files also have those caps there.Did I miss something.I too strugle with the fact that to dail in a warm fat tone results in to much low end and lack of note defenition, while lower gain setting obviously don't have drive enough.How did Carlos Santana get that drive level combined with so much attack in his notes out of that thing.Was his boogie snakeskin no 8 modified.His Altec Lansing 417 speaker can't not be bought here in Holland.What could be a good similar sounding replacement.Any other little secrets beside his fingers?  
 
Thanks  
Marcel B.
 
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3/23/2000 4:15 PM
Trace

quote:
"You sayd it was due to the .047 microfarad interstage caps."
 
 
That's where some problems can be cured but also it's not just due to those coupling caps though. An amp is a sum of it's parts. Most of the time boogies use 22uF bypass caps on all the cathodes, large filter caps, and of course along with the .047's you get A LOT of low-end! (ha ha)  
 
quote:
"But my original mk 1 files also have those caps there.Did I miss something."
 
 
I don't think you missed anything. As I recall someone mentioned the Mark 1 and Gil has a lot of experience with those. I believe his is modded pretty heavily(?), at least from what I recall.  
 
quote:
"I too strugle with the fact that to dail in a warm fat tone results in to much low end and lack of note defenition, while lower gain setting obviously don't have drive enough."
 
 
You can always lower some of the bypass caps and the coupling caps. That's a good way to go. Also lowering the filter caps is a great touch! It let's the amp "breath" a little bit while also reducing some of the "tubbyness."  
 
quote:
"How did Carlos Santana get that drive level combined with so much attack in his notes out of that thing."
 
 
Damn good question! (ha, ha) Remember that when you hear studio recordings or live recordings there are always other factors involved. Things like mic placement (this alone is a powerful force!), the console, the EQ, outboard gear, 2" tape, etc, etc. The guitar's tone goes through a great many things before it graces our ears! (ha, ha)  
 
 
quote:
"Was his boogie snakeskin no 8 modified.His Altec Lansing 417 speaker can't not be bought here in Holland.What could be a good similar sounding replacement."
 
 
I think Gil would be a good person to answer these questions. I am not an advid Santana fan so I have not studied what he used to be honest with you. I'm not saying Gil is an advid fan but he's had a lot more experience with the Mark 1 where most of my Boogie experience is with the Mark 3 and later models.  
 
quote:
"Any other little secrets beside his fingers?"
 
 
Just some of the things I mentioned above will certainly effect a guitar tone or often times make the guitar tone. What I mean by this is I've seen many amps sound different on tape than they do in the room.  
 
For what it's worth  
Trace
 
3/23/2000 4:49 PM
Gil Ayan

Well, the MArk I reissue is more prone to farting than most originals because Boogie squeezed some more gain out of those amps. The original Mark I tends to fart a lot too, but believe me, the reissues are much worse.  
 
So, you can't comoare say Santana's amp to a reissue, because they are not the same amp to begin with.  
 
What I mentioned was that the .047uF coupling caps and 15uF cathode bypass caps throughout the amp ware an overkill. If you want to start replacing those, say with .01uF coupling caps and 5uF or even 1uF cathode bypass, you will see the amp will get brighter in a hurry.  
 
I chose to NOT do that but rather LPF the signal between the HI and LO gain jacks. It works real well for me, and of course I had to "fix" the reverb on the reissue too, and in doind so I stole some more gain from the dry signal as well. Others have tried my mods and loved them, and others have returned the reissue to original specs and liked the reuslts as well.  
 
I can guarantee you that either choice will yield a more manageable sound out of the reissue.  
 
Cheers,  
 
Gil
 
3/24/2000 10:20 AM
Marcel B

Gil I allready changed the 470K for that 270K resistor to decrease the gain in the amp.I alltogether rebuild my reissue to your factory drawing mark 1 original specs.However the powersection I left alone. I noticed that the reissue uses two 220 mf in series in the first filter stage and the original only two 60 mf.Any idea why and what would be the difference in sound  
Trace mentioned in an earlyer reply to reduce the filter caps to get a better? sound  
I plan to build a Mark 1 totally point to point with Allan Bradly resistors, Orange drops caps,Mallory filter caps and so on Any experience with that  
O yes Gil what speaker is the best to replace the Altec Lansing 417? I now use a evm 12 older type witch sounds very different to the newer ones (newer sound more brittle)  
 
Thanks  
Marcel B
 
3/25/2000 9:01 PM
Gil Ayan

quote:
"I noticed that the reissue uses two 220 mf in series in the first filter stage and the original only two 60 mf.Any idea why and what would be the difference in sound  
Trace mentioned in an earlyer reply to reduce the filter caps to get a better? sound  
I plan to build a Mark 1 totally point to point with Allan Bradly resistors, Orange drops caps,Mallory filter caps and so on Any experience with that  
O yes Gil what speaker is the best to replace the Altec Lansing 417? I now use a evm 12 older type witch sounds very different to the newer ones (newer sound more brittle)  
 
Thanks  
Marcel B  
"
 
 
 
Hi Marcel. Regarding the power supply filter caps, I don't see any reason to change that in the Mark I. In a lower powered amp, you may want the bottom to feel a little looser and Fendery, which is all right. However, in an amp like the Mark I, any help you can give it to stay tight at the bottom is welcome since it has a tendency to get farty anyway.  
 
Regarding speakers, here is my slogan again. I primarily use EVM12Ls, the older typem the 200W ones and I haven't really found (or looked for) anything else to replace them. They do the job for me, so I am afraid I cannot be of any help in the speaker department.  
 
Personally, I believe the Mark I can use as tight as speaker as you can get, so I would say the EVM is the one. Santana uses an Altec with his Boogie, but I have A/B'd Altecs with EVMs and to me the EV is superior for that amp... For what it's worth, Larry Carlton and Robben Ford used EVs with their Mark Is, that was like 20 years ago though. :)  
 
Gil
 
3/28/2000 5:23 AM
Mark

Why is everybody so hung up on Orange Drops?  
I have never seen these caps in a stock Fender.  
Leo used the cheapest decent stuff he could  
get. What about those blue caps that were  
used in the SFs? Who made those caps? It sure  
wasn't Sprague. In fact, Sprague as a  
company no longer exists. Orange Drops are  
made by SB Electronics in Vermont. Atoms (as  
well as Mallorys) are made by the United  
Chemicon conglomerate. Sprague exists only as  
a brand-name. It is owned by Vishay. The  
circuit and layout have more to do with the  
sound of the amp than the individual  
components. I have build amps with the  
cheap polyester XICONS that sound as good as,  
if not better than, the best amps I built  
using Orange Drops.  
 
3/28/2000 4:02 PM
Gil Ayan
Xicon VS Orange Drops
quote:
"I have build amps with the  
cheap polyester XICONS that sound as good as,  
if not better than, the best amps I built  
using Orange Drops.  
"
 
 
Well, Mark, I have to say that I agree with you. I built two identical amps, one with orange drops and the other with Xicon polypropylene (not polyester, though). After all was said and done, I liked the one with the Xicons better... so after a couple of months I decided to rip out the orange drops from the other amp and replaced them with Xicons.  
 
Xicons are much more compact and easier to fit into crowded circuit boards and are competitively priced. So as far as I'm concerned, the ODs are good caps, but not my favorite.  
 
Gil
 

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