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Vintage threads from the first ten years

Re: Removing a tube to allow for more out of an amp

8/12/2000 4:10 AM
Peter S	Re: Removing a tube to allow for more out of an amp Brad, Properly used, an attenuator and a good amp sounds just fine. You just have learn how to use it. The power tubes don't know whether you pounding them into oblivion at low or high volume. Actually, with most power attenuators the tubes are working quite HARDER than they are with just the speakers. That's why you can damage your amp or shorten tube life considerably with one of these things if you aren't using the right attenuator with the right amp, AND using the combination correctly. With a good attentuator and a good 50 watt, you can actually get a better sound out of the amp with the power attentuator than you can without it after you learn the tricks of the trade. Peter S

8/12/2000 4:10 AM

Peter S

Re: Removing a tube to allow for more out of an amp

Brad,
Properly used, an attenuator and a good amp sounds just fine. You just have learn how to use it. The power tubes don't know whether you pounding them into oblivion at low or high volume. Actually, with most power attenuators the tubes are working quite HARDER than they are with just the speakers. That's why you can damage your amp or shorten tube life considerably with one of these things if you aren't using the right attenuator with the right amp, AND using the combination correctly. With a good attentuator and a good 50 watt, you can actually get a better sound out of the amp with the power attentuator than you can without it after you learn the tricks of the trade.

Peter S

8/12/2000 1:08 PM
Brad	Actually Peter, that DOES make sense that the amp is working hard into an attenuator. Obviously, I haven't heard one used properly. Point taken. Brad

8/13/2000 5:39 AM
anonymous	How do you misuse the attenuator? Don't they only have ohm and attenuation settings? -Jim

8/13/2000 6:09 AM
Peter S	There are many different kinds of attenuators. There are an equally large number of ways to incorrectly use them. Some amps, notably Marshalls have power amps that are sensitive to abuse. Impoeperly matched impedances in Marshalls can and often does result in output transformer failure. Power attenuators put an additional stress on the ouput stage of an amp. For many years it was highly reccommended that Marshall owners refrain frim using power attentuators. In recent years a few types of power attenuators have become available that are safe to use with Marshall amps, notably THD and Marshall ones......there may be others but I can't reccommend them because I haven't done any testing with them. It's very important to properly match impedances when using power attenuators to prevent damage to your amp. As far as getting a good sound out of one there are several different ways you can approach this. In order to get a good sound from most power attenuators at highly attenuated settings you must use some form of post output stage EQ. Some attentuators have built in EQ. You can use this built in EQ to offset the unnatural sound that the more attenuated settings tend to produce. You also have to learn how to set the tone controls on your amp to compensate for this when using an attenuator. On power attenuators that have a line out feature you can take a signal from the line out EQ it, and then run it into a small amp set at low volume. Doing this will give you the sound of your big amp cranked at low volume. The possiblilies are nearly endless. Great sounds can be had from a properly used power attenuator. Peter S

8/13/2000 6:09 AM

Peter S

There are many different kinds of attenuators. There are an equally large number of ways to incorrectly use them. Some amps, notably Marshalls have power amps that are sensitive to abuse. Impoeperly matched impedances in Marshalls can and often does result in output transformer failure. Power attenuators put an additional stress on the ouput stage of an amp. For many years it was highly reccommended that Marshall owners refrain frim using power attentuators. In recent years a few types of power attenuators have become available that are safe to use with Marshall amps, notably THD and Marshall ones......there may be others but I can't reccommend them because I haven't done any testing with them. It's very important to properly match impedances when using power attenuators to prevent damage to your amp. As far as getting a good sound out of one there are several different ways you can approach this. In order to get a good sound from most power attenuators at highly attenuated settings you must use some form of post output stage EQ. Some attentuators have built in EQ. You can use this built in EQ to offset the unnatural sound that the more attenuated settings tend to produce. You also have to learn how to set the tone controls on your amp to compensate for this when using an attenuator. On power attenuators that have a line out feature you can take a signal from the line out EQ it, and then run it into a small amp set at low volume. Doing this will give you the sound of your big amp cranked at low volume. The possiblilies are nearly endless. Great sounds can be had from a properly used power attenuator.

Peter S

8/14/2000 2:25 PM
Jim	Thanks for the info. I hope to find a marshall combo myself and check out the THD...I hear they're expensive, but you gotta crank the tubes! As far as the apartment situation(s), I have a tubeworks 1-12 amp that gets all the gain you could dream of, and sounds wonderful at low to medium volume. That kind of saturated-preamp gain won't cut through a band that well under live situations though. But for lower volume preamp-gainthroughtheceiling harmonics kinda stuff, its pretty cool;which is why I bought it. I would also like to hear about people's favorite distortion/gain pedals and/or racks. Not 'metal' distortion but interested in what comes closest to tube amp compression/distortion... Anyone?

8/14/2000 2:25 PM

Jim

Thanks for the info. I hope to find a marshall combo myself and check out the THD...I hear they're expensive, but you gotta crank the tubes! As far as the apartment situation(s), I have a tubeworks 1-12 amp that gets all the gain you could dream of, and sounds wonderful at low to medium volume. That kind of saturated-preamp gain won't cut through a band that well under live situations though. But for lower volume preamp-gainthroughtheceiling harmonics
kinda stuff, its pretty cool;which is why I bought it. I would also like to hear about people's favorite distortion/gain pedals and/or racks. Not 'metal' distortion but interested in what comes closest to tube amp compression/distortion... Anyone?

8/15/2000 4:19 AM
Michael Hoffman	I have a 1.5 watt Tiny Tone amp, the simple short-path version. It uses a 6AQ5 2-watt power tube, like a wimpy EL84. Stress-testing with a BOSS EQ indicates that my particular amp has a more sudden and ragged breakup than my 6V6 or EL84 amps. One guy wrote me about getting power-tube saturation at private levels in a mobile home. It is not true that only homeowners have the privilege of genuine power-tube saturation. There are various setups enabling low SPL saturation. 1.5 watts saturated is very loud -- half as loud as 15 watts cranked. Option E, 5-watt amp or Cornford 6-watt full-size combo, or 5.5 or 7 watt Hi-Mu -- all into a power attenuator -- is reasonable. Whatever it takes. Try not putting the speaker in standard "volume-maximizing" position in the room. Put a gobo in front. http://www.amptone.com -- info/techniques for cranked-amp tone at any volume

8/15/2000 4:19 AM

Michael Hoffman

I have a 1.5 watt Tiny Tone amp, the simple short-path version. It uses a 6AQ5 2-watt power tube, like a wimpy EL84. Stress-testing with a BOSS EQ indicates that my particular amp has a more sudden and ragged breakup than my 6V6 or EL84 amps.

One guy wrote me about getting power-tube saturation at private levels in a mobile home. It is not true that only homeowners have the privilege of genuine power-tube saturation. There are various setups enabling low SPL saturation.

1.5 watts saturated is very loud -- half as loud as 15 watts cranked.

Option E, 5-watt amp or Cornford 6-watt full-size combo, or 5.5 or 7 watt Hi-Mu -- all into a power attenuator -- is reasonable. Whatever it takes. Try not putting the speaker in standard "volume-maximizing" position in the room. Put a gobo in front.

http://www.amptone.com -- info/techniques for cranked-amp tone at any volume

8/16/2000 1:01 AM
MBSetzer	Well, start by presuming it is possible to get good rock tone out of your rig while being played in an apartment. First you must be able to get good rock tone out of it to begin with Then just set it up in the apartment and make minor adjustments for the room in question, that was easy. There must be more to it: Now if you would like to sound the same at a low enough volume to 1) keep from disturbing neighbors, or 2) without neighbors hearing at all, those are two very different things. Similar efforts would help to solve both problems though . . . In case 1) there should be no reason why you should have to reduce SPL below that of a TV set or dishwasher, depends on your neighbors. For case 2), that will take some more serious effort, since on the surface it seems physically impossible Put the effort in perspective relative to potential outcome and foreseeable benefits, keep in mind some NASA projects based on more likely presumptions have failed and been canceled after only a few $billion was spent in order to conserve resources for more promising future successes. No embarrassment, that's engineering. If that's not discouraging enough to keep from traveling too far down this road, then pursue this presumption for a few years, summarize the findings, and review preliminary conclusions. With loads of effort already made, compare what unbridled support there is for your presumption, to the abject failure of some evidence to agree, and carefully weigh the likelihood of it being an incorrect assumption. At some point it may be more logical and informative to consider the opposite assumption, and begin to expend effort in that area, the balance of efforts in opposite directions can be enlightening. That's engineering. Of course tone is a subjective thing, that's not engineering. I can say from my personal observations that if I am experiencing good rock tone in an apartment, any neighbors present possessing fairly normal hearing will be fully aware of a huge difference between that and silence. Whether or not that disturbs them is just another personal issue of opinion. And that's just using acoustic finger style guitar with nylon strings. So in my case, the following will always hold true; that it will not be possible to experience good rock tone in an apartment without most neighbors, if present, being aware of the lack of silence caused by the rock tone. Country, jazz, classical & pop tones fall into this category for me along with other genres too numerous to mention, including even lullaby's to a large degree. If I were to presume this was universally true for everyone, I would certainly be mistaken. I have even known bands that practiced in apartments but reserve my opinion of their tone Their neighbors were highly aware that they were rehearsing (or doing something with sound equipment) at the time though. Whenever I have enjoyed playing in an environment where it was possible for uninterested parties to be disturbed (often, since I can annoy at even the softest levels) it was done with enough conscious compromise in volume & tone to where any listener would be able to perceive serious restraint. I think this is just common courtesy to the uninterested, but to me good rock tone is unrestrained. So I intentionally played a lot without good tone, even though sometimes it's not within my reach to get good tone when the conditions seem ideal :- I know there are others who don't feel they are actually rocking, no matter how loud, unless they are truly disturbing someone else who dislikes what they are hearing. In conclusion, there must be more than one way to rock . . . Mike

8/16/2000 1:01 AM

MBSetzer

Well, start by presuming it is possible to get good rock tone out of your rig while being played in an apartment.

First you must be able to get good rock tone out of it to begin with

Then just set it up in the apartment and make minor adjustments for the room in question, that was easy. There must be more to it:

Now if you would like to sound the same at a low enough volume to 1) keep from disturbing neighbors, or 2) without neighbors hearing at all, those are two very different things. Similar efforts would help to solve both problems though . . .

In case 1) there should be no reason why you should have to reduce SPL below that of a TV set or dishwasher, depends on your neighbors.

For case 2), that will take some more serious effort, since on the surface it seems physically impossible

Put the effort in perspective relative to potential outcome and foreseeable benefits, keep in mind some NASA projects based on more likely presumptions have failed and been canceled after only a few $billion was spent in order to conserve resources for more promising future successes. No embarrassment, that's engineering.

If that's not discouraging enough to keep from traveling too far down this road, then pursue this presumption for a few years, summarize the findings, and review preliminary conclusions. With loads of effort already made, compare what unbridled support there is for your presumption, to the abject failure of some evidence to agree, and carefully weigh the likelihood of it being an incorrect assumption.

At some point it may be more logical and informative to consider the opposite assumption, and begin to expend effort in that area, the balance of efforts in opposite directions can be enlightening. That's engineering.

Of course tone is a subjective thing, that's not engineering.

I can say from my personal observations that if I am experiencing good rock tone in an apartment, any neighbors present possessing fairly normal hearing will be fully aware of a huge difference between that and silence. Whether or not that disturbs them is just another personal issue of opinion.

And that's just using acoustic finger style guitar with nylon strings.

So in my case, the following will always hold true; that it will not be possible to experience good rock tone in an apartment without most neighbors, if present, being aware of the lack of silence caused by the rock tone. Country, jazz, classical & pop tones fall into this category for me along with other genres too numerous to mention, including even lullaby's to a large degree.

If I were to presume this was universally true for everyone, I would certainly be mistaken. I have even known bands that practiced in apartments but reserve my opinion of their tone

Their neighbors were highly aware that they were rehearsing (or doing something with sound equipment) at the time though.

Whenever I have enjoyed playing in an environment where it was possible for uninterested parties to be disturbed (often, since I can annoy at even the softest levels) it was done with enough conscious compromise in volume & tone to where any listener would be able to perceive serious restraint. I think this is just common courtesy to the uninterested, but to me good rock tone is unrestrained. So I intentionally played a lot without good tone, even though sometimes it's not within my reach to get good tone when the conditions seem ideal :- I know there are others who don't feel they are actually rocking, no matter how loud, unless they are truly disturbing someone else who dislikes what they are hearing.

In conclusion, there must be more than one way to rock . . .

Mike

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