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M/B Dual Rectifier- Red Channel or Orange?

6/14/2000 8:03 AM
Steve Ahola	M/B Dual Rectifier- Red Channel or Orange? Looking at the DR schematic, it looks like it might be fun to build one of the channels (and skip all of those LDRs and the insane switching circuitry!) So what would your choice be (and why)? BTW is the "Presence" control on the Red Channel any good? It looks like the treble roll-off "switch" on the Orange channel but with a 25k variable resistor instead of a shunt... --Thanks! Steve Ahola

6/14/2000 8:03 AM

Steve Ahola

M/B Dual Rectifier- Red Channel or Orange?

Looking at the DR schematic, it looks like it might be fun to build one of the channels (and skip all of those LDRs and the insane switching circuitry!) So what would your choice be (and why)? BTW is the "Presence" control on the Red Channel any good? It looks like the treble roll-off "switch" on the Orange channel but with a 25k variable resistor instead of a shunt...

--Thanks!

Steve Ahola

6/14/2000 10:40 AM
A.S	I think that so called presence control is placed there because the NFB loop is disconnected so a regular presence control won´t work. A.S

6/14/2000 4:18 PM
Ryan	Steve, despite having cloned numerous high gain amps and owned even more, I always fall back to my Dual Rec's Orange channel. IMHO it's sweet & smooth but has just enough grind to avoid any loss of definition when cranking it (chording that is). It's very "touch sensative" (I think that's the phrase I want), where I can set the gain high enough for some good sustaining solos, but back of my guitar's volume to get my crunch sound, backing of further to get my clean sound. I have trouble doing this with my MK III and IV (I should say trouble getting the sound I want). The Prescence control on the orange channel is a "real" (negative feedback) prescence control but isn't too effective until around 3:00. The red channel's presence control is horrible (well so is the red channel in general, but I attribute alot of to the "prescence" control). Channel Red is basically a swarm of bees comming at you, the "prescence" control just determins if the bees are wasps / hornets / etc. I should mention that I run my Dual with (2) of the tubes pulled (50 watts), (1) of the 5U4's, I use the "bold" (non variac) setting, I installed a bias pot, and put 6550's into it (this preamp and EL-34s just make too much "mush" and clutter-up the sound.) Hope it helps, -Ryan

6/14/2000 4:18 PM

Ryan

Steve, despite having cloned numerous high gain amps and owned even more, I always fall back to my Dual Rec's Orange channel. IMHO it's sweet & smooth but has just enough grind to avoid any loss of definition when cranking it (chording that is). It's very "touch sensative" (I think that's the phrase I want), where I can set the gain high enough for some good sustaining solos, but back of my guitar's volume to get my crunch sound, backing of further to get my clean sound. I have trouble doing this with my MK III and IV (I should say trouble getting the sound I want). The Prescence control on the orange channel is a "real" (negative feedback) prescence control but isn't too effective until around 3:00. The red channel's presence control is horrible (well so is the red channel in general, but I attribute alot of to the "prescence" control). Channel Red is basically a swarm of bees comming at you, the "prescence" control just determins if the bees are wasps / hornets / etc. I should mention that I run my Dual with (2) of the tubes pulled (50 watts), (1) of the 5U4's, I use the "bold" (non variac) setting, I installed a bias pot, and put 6550's into it (this preamp and EL-34s just make too much "mush" and clutter-up the sound.)

Hope it helps,
-Ryan

6/14/2000 10:23 PM
Tom Brown	Steve, With due respect to the previous posters, I prefer the Red channel to the Orange on the Dual Rectifier Solo head. Although I've gone back and forth between the two, and I certainly enjoy the Orange channel from time to time, I find myself again and again using channel cloning to set up both channels as "Red". (This trend spans the course of about 4 years and two different Dual Recto Solo heads). I think part of the range in people's opinions about this amp stems from the different cabinets that people use with it. I own the Dual Rectifier 4x12 cabinet with Vintage 30's and the gold-tone grille cloth. (as an aside-- has anyone noticed a difference in sound due to this gold grille cloth? It has some kind of wax impregnated in it, and I swear it seems like it sounds different to me than other Recto 4x12's I've played through, but since I haven't had the opportunity to do a apples-to-apples comparison it's hard for me to know for sure) Anyway, with this cabinet I think the Red channel is a great match. The Red channel makes for a louder, cleaner clean sound than the Orange channel does, and it has a massive and authoritative dirty sound. Through a Marshall cabinet it might not sound so good, since the Marshall cabinets I've played through have tended to be on the mushier side. Once I spent an afternoon comparing different amps through different cabinets at a local music store-- Marshall JTM through Mesa cabinet, Mesa Dual Recto through Marshall cabinet, etc. One insight that one of the guys at the guitar store had that I think is pretty apt is this: The Marshall Plexi reissues tend to sound fairly harsh on their own, but they make a great combination with the Marshall cabinets because the speaker breakup in those cabinets tends to mellow them out some. The Dual Rectifiers are voiced less harsh than the Marshalls and can be somewhat mushy when the gain is turned up, so they match well with the Dual Rectifier cabinets which reproduce the amp's sound without much speaker breakup at all. As far as the presence controls, I think the Red channel "Presence" control is OK but nothing to write home about. As has been noted, it's just a second treble tone knob with a different frequency. Since the negative feedback loop is disabled in the red channel the real "presence" is on 10, which I think is one of the things about the red channel that I like. For what it's worth, I'm running Svetlana 6L6's biased at around 25mA per a bias pot I installed (stock fixed resistors produced a bias around 18-22mA depending) and usually use the tube rectifiers and have lately been using the "spongy" power setting. Preamp tubes are Sovtek 12AX7LPS's and JJ/Tesla ECC83's. By the way, if it hasn't been said here lately, the secret to getting awesome tone from the Dual Rectifier series is this: Turn DOWN the gain and turn UP the volume! Just because the gain goes to 11 doesn't mean you should be using it. My "HIGH GAIN" setting on the Red channel has the gain set to about 1:00 or 2:00 O'clock. Going higher than that is how you get the buzzbox tone that people always associate with this amp. And it really sounds great with the gain around 12:00 O'clock for a heavy crunch sound. There's a lot of territory to be explored on the lower gain settings of this amp. Hope this helps! -Tom

6/14/2000 10:23 PM

Tom Brown

Steve,

With due respect to the previous posters, I prefer the Red channel to the Orange on the Dual Rectifier Solo head. Although I've gone back and forth between the two, and I certainly enjoy the Orange channel from time to time, I find myself again and again using channel cloning to set up both channels as "Red". (This trend spans the course of about 4 years and two different Dual Recto Solo heads).

I think part of the range in people's opinions about this amp stems from the different cabinets that people use with it. I own the Dual Rectifier 4x12 cabinet with Vintage 30's and the gold-tone grille cloth.

(as an aside-- has anyone noticed a difference in sound due to this gold grille cloth? It has some kind of wax impregnated in it, and I swear it seems like it sounds different to me than other Recto 4x12's I've played through, but since I haven't had the opportunity to do a apples-to-apples comparison it's hard for me to know for sure)

Anyway, with this cabinet I think the Red channel is a great match. The Red channel makes for a louder, cleaner clean sound than the Orange channel does, and it has a massive and authoritative dirty sound. Through a Marshall cabinet it might not sound so good, since the Marshall cabinets I've played through have tended to be on the mushier side. Once I spent an afternoon comparing different amps through different cabinets at a local music store-- Marshall JTM through Mesa cabinet, Mesa Dual Recto through Marshall cabinet, etc. One insight that one of the guys at the guitar store had that I think is pretty apt is this: The Marshall Plexi reissues tend to sound fairly harsh on their own, but they make a great combination with the Marshall cabinets because the speaker breakup in those cabinets tends to mellow them out some. The Dual Rectifiers are voiced less harsh than the Marshalls and can be somewhat mushy when the gain is turned up, so they match well with the Dual Rectifier cabinets which reproduce the amp's sound without much speaker breakup at all.

As far as the presence controls, I think the Red channel "Presence" control is OK but nothing to write home about. As has been noted, it's just a second treble tone knob with a different frequency. Since the negative feedback loop is disabled in the red channel the real "presence" is on 10, which I think is one of the things about the red channel that I like.

For what it's worth, I'm running Svetlana 6L6's biased at around 25mA per a bias pot I installed (stock fixed resistors produced a bias around 18-22mA depending) and usually use the tube rectifiers and have lately been using the "spongy" power setting. Preamp tubes are Sovtek 12AX7LPS's and JJ/Tesla ECC83's.

By the way, if it hasn't been said here lately, the secret to getting awesome tone from the Dual Rectifier series is this:

Turn DOWN the gain and turn UP the volume! Just because the gain goes to 11 doesn't mean you should be using it. My "HIGH GAIN" setting on the Red channel has the gain set to about 1:00 or 2:00 O'clock. Going higher than that is how you get the buzzbox tone that people always associate with this amp. And it really sounds great with the gain around 12:00 O'clock for a heavy crunch sound. There's a lot of territory to be explored on the lower gain settings of this amp.

Hope this helps!

-Tom

6/15/2000 12:01 AM
rmike	I also prefer the Red channel for distortion, and am split between the red clone and normal orange for cleans. In contrast, I've found the Recto cabs to be muffled and muted sounding. I use a marshall cab with Vintage 30s. It's got more mids than the Recto cabs and less bass--in my opinion it sounds better in a band situation. I think it sounds just as big. The recto cab sounds richer but gets lost in the mix easier. I've found the tube rectifiers provide a fair amount of high end roll off in the red channel, and less tight bass on the low end. I prefer the solid state rectifier, although the tube rectification coupled with the spongy on the red is pretty nice. I've never found the amp to suffer "mosquito" high end like so many boogies are alleged to have. I also agree that the gain at 1-2 o'clock is best for tone. Any higher and it looses definition and actually gets a little sterile. I run the tone and presence controls pretty much at 1-2 o'clock. You must resist the temptation to turn that mid knob down for the scoop. The dead center mids in this amp are what kicks so much buttock, in my opinion. Mike

6/15/2000 12:01 AM

rmike

I also prefer the Red channel for distortion, and am split between the red clone and normal orange for cleans.

In contrast, I've found the Recto cabs to be muffled and muted sounding. I use a marshall cab with Vintage 30s. It's got more mids than the Recto cabs and less bass--in my opinion it sounds better in a band situation. I think it sounds just as big. The recto cab sounds richer but gets lost in the mix easier.

I've found the tube rectifiers provide a fair amount of high end roll off in the red channel, and less tight bass on the low end. I prefer the solid state rectifier, although the tube rectification coupled with the spongy on the red is pretty nice.

I've never found the amp to suffer "mosquito" high end like so many boogies are alleged to have. I also agree that the gain at 1-2 o'clock is best for tone. Any higher and it looses definition and actually gets a little sterile. I run the tone and presence controls pretty much at 1-2 o'clock. You must resist the temptation to turn that mid knob down for the scoop. The dead center mids in this amp are what kicks so much buttock, in my opinion.

Mike

6/15/2000 3:32 AM
Ryan	Tom, thanks for respecting my opinions, I did get kind of harsh there. Maybe it's my cab that makes the difference, I mainly use a Mesa haflback cab with some weird speakers I've only seen is this cab ("Celestion G-100"'s, and Mesa speakers that only have a pic of a Knight carrying a Mesa flag and say "MS-4"). I've tried a Soldano cab, a VHT, Marshall cabs, other Mesa cabs, but nothing gets this tone. It's all a matter of opinion I suppose And wow!, I'm a high gain freak and I never put the gain knob past 11:00 (maybe it's the pickups... Dimarzio X2N's). By the way, I'd heard really bad things about the Sovtek 12AX7LPS in this amp (any high gain amp for that matter)... said they went micro., which posistions do you have 'em in? Cheers, -Ryan

6/15/2000 3:32 AM

Ryan

Tom, thanks for respecting my opinions, I did get kind of harsh there. Maybe it's my cab that makes the difference, I mainly use a Mesa haflback cab with some weird speakers I've only seen is this cab ("Celestion G-100"'s, and Mesa speakers that only have a pic of a Knight carrying a Mesa flag and say "MS-4"). I've tried a Soldano cab, a VHT, Marshall cabs, other Mesa cabs, but nothing gets this tone. It's all a matter of opinion I suppose

And wow!, I'm a high gain freak and I never put the gain knob past 11:00 (maybe it's the pickups... Dimarzio X2N's). By the way, I'd heard really bad things about the Sovtek 12AX7LPS in this amp (any high gain amp for that matter)... said they went micro., which posistions do you have 'em in?

Cheers,
-Ryan

6/15/2000 2:58 PM
Tom Brown	Hey Ryan, No offense taken on your channel preference... I just wanted to post a contrasting opinion. I usually don't take difference in opinion on amp tone personally! (you know what I'm talking about...) I think the great value in all the "bells and whistles" on the Dual Recto isn't so you can be flipping switches between every song, it's so you can tailor the amp's response to sound its best with YOUR cabinet, YOUR guitar, etc. SO it makes sense if you have a different cabinet then a different channel, or rectifier, or spongy/bold, or whatever would sound better. Most people set these switches and forget about them for long periods of time I think. I'm glad you've found "THE TONE" with your setup. And your X2N probably makes a difference as you said... I used to have a strat with an X2N in the bridge and that really was a great pickup for metal distortion... huge output voltage! Nowadays I mainly play a Les Paul with a Dual Sound (super distortion) and a PRS CE with a Tone Zone. Both are hot, but not nearly as hot as the X2N. As for the preamp tube question... I bought 3 or 4 of the 12AX7LPS tubes when they first came out, and I've heard that this was the best batch and that subsequent batches had problems with reliability, microphonics, etc. I don't know if those problems have been fixed by now, they may have been. I hope so, because I really like the LPS as a tube... it's got a good tone (well balanced) and a good (hot but not too hot) gain level I think. Having said that, to the best of my recollection, I don't think I've got a LPS in V1, I'm pretty sure it's a Tesla in that position. I'll check on that later and let you know for sure. Can't wait for those Svetlana preamp tubes to start showing up! Best regards, -Tom

6/15/2000 2:58 PM

Tom Brown

Hey Ryan,

No offense taken on your channel preference... I just wanted to post a contrasting opinion. I usually don't take difference in opinion on amp tone personally! (you know what I'm talking about...)

I think the great value in all the "bells and whistles" on the Dual Recto isn't so you can be flipping switches between every song, it's so you can tailor the amp's response to sound its best with YOUR cabinet, YOUR guitar, etc. SO it makes sense if you have a different cabinet then a different channel, or rectifier, or spongy/bold, or whatever would sound better. Most people set these switches and forget about them for long periods of time I think. I'm glad you've found "THE TONE" with your setup.

And your X2N probably makes a difference as you said... I used to have a strat with an X2N in the bridge and that really was a great pickup for metal distortion... huge output voltage! Nowadays I mainly play a Les Paul with a Dual Sound (super distortion) and a PRS CE with a Tone Zone. Both are hot, but not nearly as hot as the X2N.

As for the preamp tube question... I bought 3 or 4 of the 12AX7LPS tubes when they first came out, and I've heard that this was the best batch and that subsequent batches had problems with reliability, microphonics, etc. I don't know if those problems have been fixed by now, they may have been. I hope so, because I really like the LPS as a tube... it's got a good tone (well balanced) and a good (hot but not too hot) gain level I think. Having said that, to the best of my recollection, I don't think I've got a LPS in V1, I'm pretty sure it's a Tesla in that position. I'll check on that later and let you know for sure.

Can't wait for those Svetlana preamp tubes to start showing up!

Best regards,

-Tom

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