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Vintage threads from the first ten years

Re: Have I lost my mind?!

4/19/2000 12:00 AM
Dolan	Re: Have I lost my mind?! Scott, The Crate I had seemed more midrangey when opened up on stage which of course was corrected with the tweaking of the knobs.I had just come out of the rack syndrome when I got the Crate VC and was looking for more bottom end when I sold it.Now I am using a Marshall DSL-100 head or a Marshall DSL-401 combo for the majority of the stuff we play classic/new rock.I also use a Blues Pearl Texas Tornado for the Stevie/Jimi type stuff we play.I'm thinking of just using the DSL-401 though.It isnt as "glassy" as the Pearl but 99% of the people listening dont know that or could care a less.Crank that baby up and let YOUR ears decide!

4/19/2000 12:00 AM

Dolan

Re: Have I lost my mind?!

Scott,

The Crate I had seemed more midrangey when opened up on stage which of course was corrected with the tweaking of the knobs.I had just come out of the rack syndrome when I got the Crate VC and was looking for more bottom end when I sold it.Now I am using a Marshall DSL-100 head or a Marshall DSL-401 combo for the majority of the stuff we play classic/new rock.I also use a Blues Pearl Texas Tornado for the Stevie/Jimi type stuff we play.I'm thinking of just using the DSL-401 though.It isnt as "glassy" as the Pearl but 99% of the people listening dont know that or could care a less.Crank that baby up and let YOUR ears decide!

4/19/2000 1:51 AM
dale	scott you're missing the point. but 1st, let me say that just because tube amps supposedly sound best wide open, that doesn't mean ALL tube amps do. there are exceptions to every rule, and the "wide open" rule is not nearly as much the rule as it once was. there are tons of newer tube amps today that happen to sound like crap cranked. in fact, amps today are designed to sound as good as possible at low volumes because of this "rule" we're speaking of. manufacturers have heard that for years and that is one of thier main goals today, to build amps that sound good low. and in the process the designs have changed to the point where many amps DON'T sound as good cranked. thats not to say ALL amps today are like that. but many are, and it's naieve to think that this rule applies to every tube amp. i personally have owned a number of amps that don't sound good cranked. crank a tweed deluxe to hear what a real cranked amp tone can do, not a modern amp.[as i said, the rule applies to some, but not all modern amps] now having said that, the real dilemma has nothing to do with cranked amp tone. the room you're playing in and the band itself can kill an amp's tone no matter how good it sounds cranked. i know this from 20 years of constant gigging and having owned about 50 amps in that time, and thats not an exaggereation. the crate is a great sounding amp, thats why i bought it. in fact, in a comparison next to my marshall i couldn't believe how much better it sounded. but onstage this was not the case, just the opposite in fact. and i'm not even saying that it won't work for him. but i have enough experience with amps and room acoustics to know that my evaluation of the crate will MOST LIKELY, be what he will find too. not definatly, but most likely. some amps have a tone that is a product of certain frequencies that happen the be the part of the spectrum that is most affected by room acoustics. or it may be that the strongest portion of a given amp's signal happens to lie within a spectrum of frequencies that are fundemental to other instruments in a typical rock/pop type of band. when this is the case, the very thing that makes the amp sound so great by itself gets cancelled out by the other instruments, leaving a lifelss sound. there are also certain frequencies that are cancelled out or boosted by the effect of certain rooms. i've noticed that marshalls seem to be less affected by this phenomenon than fender sounding amps. my theory is that midrange frequencies are affected far less by room acoustics or cancellation from other instruments than are the low and hi end. that would explain why fender sound is more inconsistant from room to room, nite to nite than marhalls are. marshalls have a very strong midrange character while fenders are just the opposite--lows and highs. i've also found that all this phenomenon is greatly reduced or even eliminated when the band is playing a slow song where the tone has a lot of room to breathe. when i had the crate i noticed this big time. i'd be hating my sound all nite except when we'd do something like 'little wing". then the amp would sound great. then we break into a rockin tune and it's bye bye tone. same thing with my groove tubes solo 75. this amp was phenominal sounding. beyond any mass production amp i'd ever owned in terms of rich harmonics and just all out magical tone. but i sold it because i found that in certain rooms it was no better than a cheap amp. then in another room it would be just friggin amazing. so my point is that some amps produce tones that are adversly affected by thier enviornment to a degree that makes the sound like crap. thats just the way it is, and if you talk to a world class sound engineer they'll tell you the same thing. acoustics are about as tricky as anything on the earth. and thats where amps live, so there is no rule that says an tube amp turned up is gonna sound good no matter what you throw at it. if that were the case, we wouldn't be frantically asking each other about what cap to use of which tubes are best, and in fact, this board probably wouldn't exist. dale

4/19/2000 1:51 AM

dale

scott

you're missing the point. but 1st, let me say that just because tube amps supposedly sound best wide open, that doesn't mean ALL tube amps do. there are exceptions to every rule, and the "wide open" rule is not nearly as much the rule as it once was. there are tons of newer tube amps today that happen to sound like crap cranked. in fact, amps today are designed to sound as good as possible at low volumes because of this "rule" we're speaking of. manufacturers have heard that for years and that is one of thier main goals today, to build amps that sound good low. and in the process the designs have changed to the point where many amps DON'T sound as good cranked. thats not to say ALL amps today are like that. but many are, and it's naieve to think that this rule applies to every tube amp. i personally have owned a number of amps that don't sound good cranked. crank a tweed deluxe to hear what a real cranked amp tone can do, not a modern amp.[as i said, the rule applies to some, but not all modern amps]

now having said that, the real dilemma has nothing to do with cranked amp tone. the room you're playing in and the band itself can kill an amp's tone no matter how good it sounds cranked. i know this from 20 years of constant gigging and having owned about 50 amps in that time, and thats not an exaggereation. the crate is a great sounding amp, thats why i bought it. in fact, in a comparison next to my marshall i couldn't believe how much better it sounded. but onstage this was not the case, just the opposite in fact. and i'm not even saying that it won't work for him. but i have enough experience with amps and room acoustics to know that my evaluation of the crate will MOST LIKELY, be what he will find too. not definatly, but most likely. some amps have a tone that is a product of certain frequencies that happen the be the part of the spectrum that is most affected by room acoustics. or it may be that the strongest portion of a given amp's signal happens to lie within a spectrum of frequencies that are fundemental to other instruments in a typical rock/pop type of band. when this is the case, the very thing that makes the amp sound so great by itself gets cancelled out by the other instruments, leaving a lifelss sound.

there are also certain frequencies that are cancelled out or boosted by the effect of certain rooms. i've noticed that marshalls seem to be less affected by this phenomenon than fender sounding amps. my theory is that midrange frequencies are affected far less by room acoustics or cancellation from other instruments than are the low and hi end. that would explain why fender sound is more inconsistant from room to room, nite to nite than marhalls are. marshalls have a very strong midrange character while fenders are just the opposite--lows and highs.

i've also found that all this phenomenon is greatly reduced or even eliminated when the band is playing a slow song where the tone has a lot of room to breathe. when i had the crate i noticed this big time. i'd be hating my sound all nite except when we'd do something like 'little wing". then the amp would sound great. then we break into a rockin tune and it's bye bye tone. same thing with my groove tubes solo 75. this amp was phenominal sounding. beyond any mass production amp i'd ever owned in terms of rich harmonics and just all out magical tone. but i sold it because i found that in certain rooms it was no better than a cheap amp. then in another room it would be just friggin amazing.

so my point is that some amps produce tones that are adversly affected by thier enviornment to a degree that makes the sound like crap. thats just the way it is, and if you talk to a world class sound engineer they'll tell you the same thing. acoustics are about as tricky as anything on the earth. and thats where amps live, so there is no rule that says an tube amp turned up is gonna sound good no matter what you throw at it. if that were the case, we wouldn't be frantically asking each other about what cap to use of which tubes are best, and in fact, this board probably wouldn't exist.

dale

4/19/2000 9:29 AM
Scott	Maybe I should just learn to play the bongos(LOL)! I realize that sound/tone preferance/etc. is all subjective. Know why I post threads here? Because I love to hear what others have to say, and without fail, the opinions vary from one end of the spectrum to the other. I admit that my theories and beliefs in regards to tube amps and effects are based almost entirely on superstition. If it sounds good, don't "f" with it. I cannot tell you why I've had Princeton's that have sounded better than JTM 45's or why a Pignose 40 through a 4x12 greenback loaded cab still makes most guitarists stare in disbelief. If you ever catch my band playing out one night and I have the Crate with me, feel free to tell me what you think. To quote my father who is the one who taught me to play and quite the electronics wiz..."Quit torturing yourself and buy the Line 6 Pod. Nothing like being able to download and amp you've ever wanted."

4/19/2000 9:29 AM

Scott

Maybe I should just learn to play the bongos(LOL)!

I realize that sound/tone preferance/etc. is all subjective. Know why I post threads here? Because I love to hear what others have to say, and without fail, the opinions vary from one end of the spectrum to the other. I admit that my theories and beliefs in regards to tube amps and effects are based almost entirely on superstition. If it sounds good, don't "f" with it. I cannot tell you why I've had Princeton's that have sounded better than JTM 45's or why a Pignose 40 through a 4x12 greenback loaded cab still makes most guitarists stare in disbelief. If you ever catch my band playing out one night and I have the Crate with me, feel free to tell me what you think. To quote my father who is the one who taught me to play and quite the electronics wiz..."Quit torturing yourself and buy the Line 6 Pod. Nothing like being able to download and amp you've ever wanted."

4/19/2000 12:11 PM
Dave Rich	Crate has a reputation which they deserve of building some cheesy amps. But the Vintage Club series are seriously good sounding amps. I have a Crate VC30 which is basically an AC30 clone. It sounds great at low to mid volumes, but at higher volumes starts to sound a little grainy. I believe it's due to the wimpy OT they put in there. If I can find a good AC30 OT at a good price (suggestions?) I think it might turn this amp into a monster. Dave Rich

4/19/2000 12:11 PM

Dave Rich

Crate has a reputation which they deserve of building some cheesy amps. But the Vintage Club series are seriously good sounding amps. I have a Crate VC30 which is basically an AC30 clone. It sounds great at low to mid volumes, but at higher volumes starts to sound a little grainy. I believe it's due to the wimpy OT they put in there. If I can find a good AC30 OT at a good price (suggestions?) I think it might turn this amp into a monster.

Dave Rich

4/19/2000 3:00 PM

Bruce

quote:
"I have a Crate VC30 which is basically an AC30 clone."

Ha ha ha...
Anyhow, one thing I do agree with is, these inexpensive amps have a decent clean medium loud tubey tone and are much better sounding played like that. Ignore any of the boost/gain switching in Crate amps.
They just don't sound so good to me.
With GOOD NOS tubes and speaker combination, they are quite useable.
The OTs are not bad but only fair.
Even a reissue VOX OT would probably sound better.
Bruce

4/19/2000 8:08 PM

RMS

quote:
"Question...a couple of people here have stated that they've lost tone at higher volumes with the Crate. Does that seems a little backwards to anyone other than me?. Usually I find that once you begin to open a tube amp up volume wise, "tone" begins to really show through. Any thoughts?"

I've never played one of these Crates outside of a store, so I'll just comment in general. My experience is that there are 3 different type of sounds I look for from a guitar amp. The first is room or practice volume. Second is loud solo volume (ie. turned up, but without other instruments). Finally, the third (most important IMO) is loud in the mix with other instruments.

In the second two cases, the amp doesn't really sound any different, but its apparent sound is different. Some amps sound great at high volumes by themselves but still tend to get lost in the mix with other instruments. I'm a long time Marshall user. Whenever I play one by itself, I always think it's too bright. As soon as I get a bass and drums there, it sounds perfect to me. It just mixes better with other instruments than some other amps that sound better if you A/B'd them in a sound room by yourself.

That's how I read the statement. The Crate may actually sound better opened up than at low volume (may not too, due to the output transformer), but it doesn't cut throw well with the rest of the band. YMMV of course and I don't have an opinion on the particular amp from personal experience. It's just how I read the statement from my own experience.

Ross

4/19/2000 10:44 PM
Brian	As for the BFDR- Hell yes its too loud! My roomate had one of the reissues, and he had to resort to turning it down and using a tube screamer during his bar gigs. You need a very big room for even a small amp like that, unless you want everyone's ears to bleed, and no one to be able to chat with their friends.... Sometimes the audience isn't there to hear you -- rather to have a good time with some background music. Shitty I know, but it is one thing a gigging musician has to deal with! Try playing a horn in a small jazz club sometime -- its torture! As for a smaller amp -- try a princeton, or even a champ with a bigger cab! BT

4/19/2000 10:44 PM

Brian

As for the BFDR-

Hell yes its too loud! My roomate had one of the reissues, and he had to resort to turning it down and using a tube screamer during his bar gigs.

You need a very big room for even a small amp like that, unless you want everyone's ears to bleed, and no one to be able to chat with their friends....

Sometimes the audience isn't there to hear you -- rather to have a good time with some background music. Shitty I know, but it is one thing a gigging musician has to deal with! Try playing a horn in a small jazz club sometime -- its torture!

As for a smaller amp -- try a princeton, or even a champ with a bigger cab!

BT

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