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Vintage threads from the first ten years

The Hawthorne Effect

9/18/1999 5:52 PM
Lee	The Hawthorne Effect Note: I've posted this on the WeberVST Amp BBS discussion area also but since the audiences are mostly different folks, I thought I'd put it here too to stir the pot. Back in the 30s, some industrial engineers wanted to study the productivity effects of lighting on workers in a Westinhouse plant in Hawthorne, Illinois. The workers knew that they were being studied. First the engineers increased the lighting and production went up. Then they started reducing the lights and production continued to go up! This strange result became known as the "Hawthorne effect." The workers worked harder because they knew they were being studied, not because of changes in light levels. I think a variation of the Hawthorne effect takes place every time someone makes a change to their amp. They expect to hear a difference and so they do hear a difference! Obviously some changes do make a difference (and could usually be measured in engineering units) but I would be willing to wager that many changes people think they hear are all in their mind. The recent nonsense (on the Weber board) about "polarity" of coupling caps comes to mind. I am also skeptical that, in a true double-blind test, anyone could hear the difference between different brands of same value caps, between carbon comp vs. carbon film resistors, between different 4558 ICs, etc. Some of these claims are as ridiculous as the high-end audio crowd claims that result in them spending tens of thousands of dollars in search of that elusive sonic Nirvana. Anyway, that’s my story and I’m sticking to it. Lee

9/18/1999 5:52 PM

Lee

The Hawthorne Effect

Note: I've posted this on the WeberVST Amp BBS discussion area also but since the audiences are mostly different folks, I thought I'd put it here too to stir the pot.

Back in the 30s, some industrial engineers wanted to study the productivity effects of lighting on workers in a Westinhouse plant in Hawthorne, Illinois. The workers knew that they were being studied. First the engineers increased the lighting and production went up. Then they started reducing the lights and production continued to go up! This strange result became known as the "Hawthorne effect." The workers worked harder because they knew they were being studied, not because of changes in light levels.

I think a variation of the Hawthorne effect takes place every time someone makes a change to their amp. They expect to hear a difference and so they do hear a difference! Obviously some changes do make a difference (and could usually be measured in engineering units) but I would be willing to wager that many changes people think they hear are all in their mind. The recent nonsense (on the Weber board) about "polarity" of coupling caps comes to mind. I am also skeptical that, in a true double-blind test, anyone could hear the difference between different brands of same value caps, between carbon comp vs. carbon film resistors, between different 4558 ICs, etc. Some of these claims are as ridiculous as the high-end audio crowd claims that result in them spending tens of thousands of dollars in search of that elusive sonic Nirvana.

Anyway, that’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

Lee

9/18/1999 6:44 PM
Ted Matsumura	Lee, I agree that this phenomenon, and how it relates to modding amps. I believe that in some ways I am fortunate that I cannot solder, otherwise I'd be taking the iron to my amps everytime someone got that "ultimate dumblitis mod" by changing a cap or resistor value somewhere. I also think it applies to audio gear. My HK Cit II with frequency response of like 1 to 1 billion hertz (well something ridiculously high) sounds better than amps costing millions of times more. I read that EJ has his BF fenders setups, and then doesn't tweak them. He varies plug and play things like tubes and cords, and effects, but not the amp itself. Takes a lot of willpower and discipline to not chase every dumbleitis secret uncovered. Ted

9/18/1999 6:44 PM

Ted Matsumura

Lee,

I agree that this phenomenon, and how it relates to modding amps. I believe that in some ways I am fortunate that I cannot solder, otherwise I'd be taking the iron to my amps everytime someone got that "ultimate dumblitis mod" by changing a cap or resistor value somewhere.

I also think it applies to audio gear. My HK Cit II with frequency response of like 1 to 1 billion hertz (well something ridiculously high) sounds better than amps costing millions of times more.

I read that EJ has his BF fenders setups, and then doesn't tweak them. He varies plug and play things like tubes and cords, and effects, but not the amp itself. Takes a lot of willpower and discipline to not chase every dumbleitis secret uncovered.

Ted

9/19/1999 1:55 AM
Mike B	I've found that I sound a lot better if I practice.... Certainly, good tone from the amp/guitar combination doesn't hurt, and I've spent a good bit of time tinkering with amps, but there is a point of diminishing returns. Plus, once you're playing with a band, the subtleties get lost. I have to admit that searching for the Holy Grail of tone is an exciting and interesting pursuit, but I have to keep in mind what Frank Zappa said: "Shut up and play yer guitar!" Mike B

9/19/1999 1:55 AM

Mike B

I've found that I sound a lot better if I practice....

Certainly, good tone from the amp/guitar combination doesn't hurt, and I've spent a good bit of time tinkering with amps, but there is a point of diminishing returns. Plus, once you're playing with a band, the subtleties get lost. I have to admit that searching for the Holy Grail of tone is an exciting and interesting pursuit, but I have to keep in mind what Frank Zappa said: "Shut up and play yer guitar!"

Mike B

9/19/1999 3:09 AM
Lee	>Plus, once you're playing with a band, >the subtleties get lost. Amen to that.

9/19/1999 1:03 PM
SpeedRacer	It's also good to keep in mind that the human memory is excellent at recalling certain things, shapes for one.. Sound on the other hand is not recalled well. Your perception of how it USED to sound is, at best, faulty. Coupled with the psychological desire to hear an improvement for all your hard work, (and all the research/ advice/ hype/etc) what other result could you have? This is why those double blind test are so crictical. But how many of us have identical amps to A/B every time we want to tweak something..

9/19/1999 1:03 PM

SpeedRacer

It's also good to keep in mind that the human memory is excellent at recalling certain things, shapes for one.. Sound on the other hand is not recalled well. Your perception of how it USED to sound is, at best, faulty. Coupled with the psychological desire to hear an improvement for all your hard work, (and all the research/ advice/ hype/etc) what other result could you have? :-)

This is why those double blind test are so crictical. But how many of us have identical amps to A/B every time we want to tweak something..

9/20/1999 3:14 PM
Stephen Conner	I agree too. I've also noticed the reverse Hawthorne effect Every change I make seems to make it sound worse... then putting it back the way it was, it sounds worse again... help! It is very easy to imagine changes that aren't actually there. Many authorities reckon that all transistor hi-fi amps (unless designed by an idiot) sound exactly alike. In this respect, audio and music professionals have it sorted - they buy the gear, set it up, forget about it, and get on with making music (and money!) Chuck Berry for instance - apparently he travelled with a guitar and left the promoters to arrange amps for him on the night! Steve.

9/20/1999 3:14 PM

Stephen Conner

I agree too.

I've also noticed the reverse Hawthorne effect

Every change I make seems to make it sound worse... then putting it back the way it was, it sounds worse again... help!

It is very easy to imagine changes that aren't actually there. Many authorities reckon that all transistor hi-fi amps (unless designed by an idiot) sound exactly alike.

In this respect, audio and music professionals have it sorted - they buy the gear, set it up, forget about it, and get on with making music (and money!) Chuck Berry for instance - apparently he travelled with a guitar and left the promoters to arrange amps for him on the night!

Steve.

9/20/1999 5:39 PM
SpeedRacer	It may be hard to locate in the UK, but if you have not seen it, beg, borrow or steal a copy of "Hail Hail Rock & Roll", the lovingly made (yet very honest) Chuck bio.. he not only traveled sans-amp, but bought and sold guitars all the time.. no "lucille" in his life.. just a "hammer". He also traveled w/o a band.. the booking people would have to produce a band which knew his "greatest hits" and Chuck is notorious for showing up a little late, stepping up on stage and just launching into a song.. (no set list either!) I think it's Springsteen who is interviewed and talks about being Chucks backing band once. Just amazing.

9/20/1999 5:39 PM

SpeedRacer

It may be hard to locate in the UK, but if you have not seen it, beg, borrow or steal a copy of "Hail Hail Rock & Roll", the lovingly made (yet very honest) Chuck bio.. he not only traveled sans-amp, but bought and sold guitars all the time.. no "lucille" in his life.. just a "hammer". He also traveled w/o a band.. the booking people would have to produce a band which knew his "greatest hits" and Chuck is notorious for showing up a little late, stepping up on stage and just launching into a song.. (no set list either!) I think it's Springsteen who is interviewed and talks about being Chucks backing band once. Just amazing.

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