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Re:(YIKES!!) Guys please!

8/7/1999 2:22 AM
Psycho Bass Guy	Re:(YIKES!!) Guys please! Once again, I understand your message. There are very few good sound guys out there. Being one of them,(I'll let you decide good or bad) I can't tell you the times I have been told by a promoter, groupie, sibling, child (you get the picture, basically anybody with no musical knowledge whatsoever who has enough pull with the artist to make life hell on the FOH guy) to turn down the bass- Because: a.this is not that kind of music, b.nobody wants to hear the stupid thing, c. it's just another guitar, right? d. everybody loves deafening drums. The point is this- bass players do not have the luxury of relying on the sound guy. Even good ones are still subject to the aformentioned bullshit, which means if they piss off the wrong person, they don't get paid or get the next gig. Therefore, bass players must pound the audience into submission from the stage. (I swear those are the P.A. subs!) Tube amps sound louder and better than solid state, so naturally they are the best way to go. Even Aspen Pittman reveres the mighty SVT, and that is for a reason. Bass players, due to the nature of human hearing have to have at least three times the power of an otherwise equivalent guitar amp just to compete. Think about it, the only tube competition for a 200 watt Marshall Major is a $5k custom bass amp. I just want something that will carry my tone, respond to my playing dynamics and cause the occasional bowel movement in the back. You guys seem to know your stuff beyond reproach about guitar. Well, I am asking for solutions to the low end of the spectrum. As far as speakers, there are several lines from different manufacturers which handle 1000 watts RMS,so that is not the problem. You can't even blame this one on the drummer! Until attitudes change, eardrums are going to die. I am just trying to get all the guts that I pour into my playing to the people in the back row. Stage balance aside, most high powered bass amps are an extension of the P.A. to cover for ineptitude behind the board. Our band does not have a sound guy and most places we play don't have any decent P.A. to speak of anyway. We put our money into our backline in the hopes that if we couldn't wet panties, we could at least have tone that would make playing more fun. I apologize for the rant. Hallelujah, Holy Shit!! Where's the Tylenol?

8/7/1999 2:22 AM

Psycho Bass Guy

Re:(YIKES!!) Guys please!

Once again, I understand your message. There are very few good sound guys out there. Being one of them,(I'll let you decide good or bad) I can't tell you the times I have been told by a promoter, groupie, sibling, child (you get the picture, basically anybody with no musical knowledge whatsoever who has enough pull with the artist to make life hell on the FOH guy) to turn down the bass-

Because: a.this is not that kind of music, b.nobody wants to hear the stupid thing, c. it's just another guitar, right? d. everybody loves deafening drums.

The point is this- bass players do not have the luxury of relying on the sound guy. Even good ones are still subject to the aformentioned bullshit, which means if they piss off the wrong person, they don't get paid or get the next gig. Therefore, bass players must pound the audience into submission from the stage. (I swear those are the P.A. subs!) Tube amps sound louder and better than solid state, so naturally they are the best way to go. Even Aspen Pittman reveres the mighty SVT, and that is for a reason. Bass players, due to the nature of human hearing have to have at least three times the power of an otherwise equivalent guitar amp just to compete. Think about it, the only tube competition for a 200 watt Marshall Major is a $5k custom bass amp. I just want something that will carry my tone, respond to my playing dynamics and cause the occasional bowel movement in the back. You guys seem to know your stuff beyond reproach about guitar. Well, I am asking for solutions to the low end of the spectrum. As far as speakers, there are several lines from different manufacturers which handle 1000 watts RMS,so that is not the problem. You can't even blame this one on the drummer! Until attitudes change, eardrums are going to die. I am just trying to get all the guts that I pour into my playing to the people in the back row. Stage balance aside, most high powered bass amps are an extension of the P.A. to cover for ineptitude behind the board. Our band does not have a sound guy and most places we play don't have any decent P.A. to speak of anyway. We put our money into our backline in the hopes that if we couldn't wet panties, we could at least have tone that would make playing more fun. I apologize for the rant. Hallelujah, Holy Shit!! Where's the Tylenol?

8/7/1999 5:51 PM
Mie Burgundy	Okay, but be advised that should you guys ever tour the Netherlands, and we meet, we´ll have words about that rig of yours. Excepting hard rockbands, I get better mixes than most professionals (I not, surprise surprise) at 100dB, and that includes bowel-movement. It´s just about frequency control. Some dodo wants you to turn it up? Hm, why not boost, say 2k-4k on the FOH eq? Hey, he´s happy, no eardrum splitting. Anyway, your biggest problem is going to be the transformers. These grow large due to a) powerhandling capacity b)lower fequency cutoff point. A transformer going all the way down to, say, 20Hz AND capable of taking a punishing 1000W is going to be HUGE. I don´t think they even make cores for this extravagant size, so you´ll have to have it all custom made. The amp will probably be as big as a 4x12, and use as much fans and ventilation as you can. A 1000W amp will probably eat up 4000W (you´ll need your own private powersupply) so that´s 3000W of heat.While you´re at it, build a small combustion engine in there (raid a lawnmower), mount a seat and a steeringwheel and tires too. You´ll need it to move the damn thing. It might be easier (though less original) to buy a host of SVT´s (which really are great! and loud! no louder!), and build a tube preamp feeding anything from one to x of them. Advantages; - you can take just the right amount for a gig, not too much heavy lifting and stage-space-hogging, enough noise.< - smaller packages to carry. Walk a few more times, save that hernia for later. - your sound will a bit more harmonically complex, because all of these amps will distort (just a little bit, but still - that´s one of the beauties of tubes) differently. This is a good thing. - a host of stacks looks way cooler than one HUGE amp. Everybody will think it´s a fake, like those cardboard Fenders Neil Young had. - a Lot of speakers will also help to even out your sound across the entire room. One big mother bawling 1000W IMHO sounds way less musically than 4 speakers putting out a "modest" 250, and it also suffers more from reflection and interference problems. Hope it helps.

8/7/1999 5:51 PM

Mie Burgundy

Okay, but be advised that should you guys ever tour the Netherlands, and we meet, we´ll have words about that rig of yours. Excepting hard rockbands, I get better mixes than most professionals (I not, surprise surprise) at 100dB, and that includes bowel-movement. It´s just about frequency control. Some dodo wants you to turn it up? Hm, why not boost, say 2k-4k on the FOH eq? Hey, he´s happy, no eardrum splitting.

Anyway, your biggest problem is going to be the transformers. These grow large due to a) powerhandling capacity b)lower fequency cutoff point. A transformer going all the way down to, say, 20Hz AND capable of taking a punishing 1000W is going to be HUGE. I don´t think they even make cores for this extravagant size, so you´ll have to have it all custom made. The amp will probably be as big as a 4x12, and use as much fans and ventilation as you can. A 1000W amp will probably eat up 4000W (you´ll need your own private powersupply) so that´s 3000W of heat.While you´re at it, build a small combustion engine in there (raid a lawnmower), mount a seat and a steeringwheel and tires too. You´ll need it to move the damn thing.

It might be easier (though less original) to buy a host of SVT´s (which really are great! and loud! no louder!), and build a tube preamp feeding anything from one to x of them. Advantages;

- you can take just the right amount for a gig, not too much heavy lifting and stage-space-hogging, enough noise.<

- smaller packages to carry. Walk a few more times, save that hernia for later.

- your sound will a bit more harmonically complex, because all of these amps will distort (just a little bit, but still - that´s one of the beauties of tubes) differently. This is a good thing.

- a host of stacks looks way cooler than one HUGE amp. Everybody will think it´s a fake, like those cardboard Fenders Neil Young had.

- a Lot of speakers will also help to even out your sound across the entire room. One big mother bawling 1000W IMHO sounds way less musically than 4 speakers putting out a "modest" 250, and it also suffers more from reflection and interference problems.

Hope it helps.

8/8/1999 3:25 AM
Hi	I've heard all these arguments before, from both sides, and certainly understand. I've worked with sound guys that have worked with every big name you can think of and play entire bands like a big instrument, and I've worked with sound guys that I felt like shooting (which I think is legal in Texas? JUST JOKING!!!). But really, we all like to pretend that the bottom line is the tone we want, but in reality the bottom line is the audience we want. Do we want to make ourselves happy with "THE TONE" or do we want to communicate our ideals and concepts in a musical framework to an audience? Ten or 15 feet from an amp is not a good sound perspective, and so the good and trusted sound guy is all-important. What if the sound guy sucks at his/her job and you need "more" tone or more volume or whatever? Well, this conversation could go on forever, but the real bottom line is that if you don't want to alienate the audience that you're trying to reach with your music, you have to have the "sound" that THEY want. How do you balance this with what you want? Well, that's the "art" part of our job, isn't it? Hi

8/8/1999 3:25 AM

I've heard all these arguments before, from both sides, and certainly understand. I've worked with sound guys that have worked with every big name you can think of and play entire bands like a big instrument, and I've worked with sound guys that I felt like shooting (which I think is legal in Texas? JUST JOKING!!!). But really, we all like to pretend that the bottom line is the tone we want, but in reality the bottom line is the *audience* we want. Do we want to make ourselves happy with "THE TONE" or do we want to communicate our ideals and concepts in a musical framework to an audience? Ten or 15 feet from an amp is not a good sound perspective, and so the good and trusted sound guy is all-important. What if the sound guy sucks at his/her job and you need "more" tone or more volume or whatever? Well, this conversation could go on forever, but the real bottom line is that if you don't want to alienate the audience that you're trying to reach with your music, you have to have the "sound" that THEY want. How do you balance this with what you want? Well, that's the "art" part of our job, isn't it?

Hi

8/8/1999 6:23 PM
Trace	Hey All; There have been some great points made on both sides and as opinions goes...there is no "right or wrong". I play in a band and also run sound (not as much as I used to) as well as being a recording engineer in a studio by day (sort of like Clark Kent I guess--ha, ha) Anyway there is something that has not been mentioned that I think is valid here. (keep in mind my bassist has a 1969 SVT head and cabinet and I've recorded and miked many in my day) It is different standing next to your bass rig when you are playing as opposed to being in the crowd and listening. For that matter it's also different when you are the sound man standing at the board. I've seen some great sound men and a lot of really bad ones. (a friend works for ShowCo and is very good) Here's the thing that we all need to remember ... you need to factor in room acoustics and the fact that certain frequencies take a lot more "travel time" (sound going from your amp to the back of the club or room) for lower frequencies to build up to actually be heard by human ears. An SVT is well known amoung pro sound men to "build up" bass frequencies in the back of the room from the stage volume being too loud. Some rooms are very "bass heavy" meaning the lower frequencies build up a lot more in the rear fo the room and can sound "boomy" as all heck. A "good" sound man will walk to the back of the room, the the center of the room and basically everywhere people are standing to listen to the mix. Why? because it DOES sound different through out the room and you HAVE to mix to the ROOM. One room I was just mixing is a great example of this. The mix was sounding killer from where I was standing in the mixing booth. When I stepped out of the booth (and down two steps) and walked about 10 feet back....I noticed I couldn't hear any vocals at all. I walked back up to the booth and they sounded great. the problem was that the ONLY place the vocals sounded great was where I was standing! When I made the adjustment and boosted them it sounde dloud as hell to me but everywhere else in the room it was perfect. We all know how it goes and we've all been through it a million times. We start of the set(s) and people are in the back of the room until they "loosen up" and are ready to have a good time. If the sound is anything but great half of them will tend to leave. (not too good for business) On the other turn of the screw I also understand that you need to hear yourself on stage. A player never plays well if they can not hear themselves well enough but there is a fine line between keeping the harmony on stage and being the loudest guy in the town that night. I also play bass and I know it's impossible to "lock in" or play in the pocket if the bass rig is so loud that I can't hear the kick drum. I've never opened up an SVT passed "3" even when there's a 50 watt plexi on "10" next to me. (not judging...just siting my experinece is all) It seems that as a bassist I get more calls simply because I am playing in the pocket and the only way I can do that is to hear the kick drum (the snare is never usually a problem to hear) Long story short...you can't judge what's coming out opf the PA from the stage. There's no art to being forced to mix around a blaring instrument (what ever it is) and the crowd that comes to the bars isn't ready to hear 120db until (MAYBE) the very end of the night. I would also suggest finding a good sound man and paying him what ever it's worth. They money will always come back to you through more repeat bookings, better pay at the same clubs, and getting more calls to play bass. Just my 2 cents worth Trace

8/8/1999 6:23 PM

Trace

Hey All;

There have been some great points made on both sides and as opinions goes...there is no "right or wrong". I play in a band and also run sound (not as much as I used to) as well as being a recording engineer in a studio by day (sort of like Clark Kent I guess--ha, ha)

Anyway there is something that has not been mentioned that I think is valid here. (keep in mind my bassist has a 1969 SVT head and cabinet and I've recorded and miked many in my day)

It is different standing next to your bass rig when you are playing as opposed to being in the crowd and listening. For that matter it's also different when you are the sound man standing at the board. I've seen some great sound men and a lot of really bad ones. (a friend works for ShowCo and is very good)

Here's the thing that we all need to remember ... you need to factor in room acoustics and the fact that certain frequencies take a lot more "travel time" (sound going from your amp to the back of the club or room) for lower frequencies to build up to actually be heard by human ears. An SVT is well known amoung pro sound men to "build up" bass frequencies in the back of the room from the stage volume being too loud.

Some rooms are very "bass heavy" meaning the lower frequencies build up a lot more in the rear fo the room and can sound "boomy" as all heck. A "good" sound man will walk to the back of the room, the the center of the room and basically everywhere people are standing to listen to the mix. Why? because it DOES sound different through out the room and you HAVE to mix to the ROOM. One room I was just mixing is a great example of this.

The mix was sounding killer from where I was standing in the mixing booth. When I stepped out of the booth (and down two steps) and walked about 10 feet back....I noticed I couldn't hear any vocals at all. I walked back up to the booth and they sounded great. the problem was that the ONLY place the vocals sounded great was where I was standing! When I made the adjustment and boosted them it sounde dloud as hell to me but everywhere else in the room it was perfect.

We all know how it goes and we've all been through it a million times. We start of the set(s) and people are in the back of the room until they "loosen up" and are ready to have a good time. If the sound is anything but great half of them will tend to leave. (not too good for business)

On the other turn of the screw I also understand that you need to hear yourself on stage. A player never plays well if they can not hear themselves well enough but there is a fine line between keeping the harmony on stage and being the loudest guy in the town that night.

I also play bass and I know it's impossible to "lock in"

or play in the pocket if the bass rig is so loud that I can't hear the kick drum. I've never opened up an SVT passed "3" even when there's a 50 watt plexi on "10" next to me. (not judging...just siting my experinece is all) It seems that as a bassist I get more calls simply because I am playing in the pocket and the only way I can do that is to hear the kick drum (the snare is never usually a problem to hear)

Long story short...you can't judge what's coming out opf the PA from the stage. There's no art to being forced to mix around a blaring instrument (what ever it is) and the crowd that comes to the bars isn't ready to hear 120db until (MAYBE) the very end of the night. I would also suggest finding a good sound man and paying him what ever it's worth. They money will always come back to you through more repeat bookings, better pay at the same clubs, and getting more calls to play bass.

Just my 2 cents worth

Trace

8/10/1999 9:04 PM
anonymous	Psycho: check this out Check out my wild bass rig: I use a blackface Fender Bassman (40 watts) with a Bag End 15" enclosure. The Bag End is 8 ohms, so I'm only developing 20 actual watts. We swing, we groove, people dance and pay us good money. Only trouble is, the piano player/leader keeps telling me to turn down...

8/11/1999 5:22 AM
Psycho Bass Guy	Now that everyone thinks, I'm either deaf or insane, I think that I should have better explained what I was looking for. Yes, I want a louder tube bass amp than my SVT alone, but I was looking for specific tube amps that actually were manufactured in the past to modify. And as for the volume, I play in very, very loud hard rock/punk band.(Sort of a sick cross between Motorhead and the Ramones) I compete with a Marshall 100 watt stack, and a Peavey Duel(120 watts) coupled with a Classic 50. My main gigging amp however is not my '69 SVT, but the 450 watt solid state SVTIII Pro. I refuse to waste two hundred dollars worth of tubes on the gigs we play right now. I like to mod old tube stuff with a friend of mine. Right now, I am rebuilding two Bogen 200 hifi amps, and thought just for shits and giggles if I could find and old RCA theater amp. Just for all of your collective piece of mind, I am taking the modular concept to heart and getting another SVT-type head. I am thinking of pairing it with a Nemesis 8x10 cab because they sound better than an SVT cab to me. They're lighter too! Anyway, all of your suggestions were well received( except for the gas powered amp, I also lift weights. If I build it, I WILL move it on my own). I didn't really expect to touch such a nerve, but then again, I am pretty opinionated, too. My band's music is just tad bit extreme and I get carried away trying to match volume and attitude. My thoughts on sound guys stand, because I stopped being one to play. It's simply too political and rarely does actual quality come into play. I could share volumes on rooms, reflections, phase anomolies, dead spots, blending, bass buildup, and perceived volume as opposed to actual volume(just one of the areas of psycoacoustics- hence Psycho Bass Guy)but I got tired of all the bullshit and just wanted something that would be undeniably mine. Our crowds love us, and I think part of that is because of our basic approach. The money sucks, our band all has day jobs, and none of us get laid as often as we'd like, but we play. We do it for the love. We do it for the music, but most important, we do it because we want to.

8/11/1999 5:22 AM

Psycho Bass Guy

Now that everyone thinks, I'm either deaf or insane, I think that I should have better explained what I was looking for. Yes, I want a louder tube bass amp than my SVT alone, but I was looking for specific tube amps that actually were manufactured in the past to modify.

And as for the volume, I play in very, very loud hard rock/punk band.(Sort of a sick cross between Motorhead and the Ramones) I compete with a Marshall 100 watt stack, and a Peavey Duel(120 watts) coupled with a Classic 50. My main gigging amp however is not my '69 SVT, but the 450 watt solid state SVTIII Pro. I refuse to waste two hundred dollars worth of tubes on the gigs we play right now. I like to mod old tube stuff with a friend of mine. Right now, I am rebuilding two Bogen 200 hifi amps, and thought just for shits and giggles if I could find and old RCA theater amp.

Just for all of your collective piece of mind, I am taking the modular concept to heart and getting another SVT-type head. I am thinking of pairing it with a Nemesis 8x10 cab because they sound better than an SVT cab to me. They're lighter too!

Anyway, all of your suggestions were well received( except for the gas powered amp, I also lift weights. If I build it, I WILL move it on my own). I didn't really expect to touch such a nerve, but then again, I am pretty opinionated, too. My band's music is just tad bit extreme and I get carried away trying to match volume and attitude. My thoughts on sound guys stand, because I stopped being one to play. It's simply too political and rarely does actual quality come into play. I could share volumes on rooms, reflections, phase anomolies, dead spots, blending, bass buildup, and perceived volume as opposed to actual volume(just one of the areas of psycoacoustics- hence Psycho Bass Guy)but I got tired of all the bullshit and just wanted something that would be undeniably mine. Our crowds love us, and I think part of that is because of our basic approach. The money sucks, our band all has day jobs, and none of us get laid as often as we'd like, but we play. We do it for the love. We do it for the music, but most important, we do it because we want to.

8/11/1999 3:46 PM
MBSetzer	Hey Psych: At least the SVT3Pro has 12AX7's in there! Ever try changing them from the stock tubes? Still haven't seen what brand is supplied from the factory. It would be interesting to find out if changing the preamps and driver tubes has as much effect for bass with the current SVT3Pro compared to guitar amps old & new where the 12AX7's can make a huge difference and usually do. Best Regards, MBSetzer

8/11/1999 3:46 PM

MBSetzer

Hey Psych:

At least the SVT3Pro has 12AX7's in there!

Ever try changing them from the stock tubes?

Still haven't seen what brand is supplied from the factory.

It would be interesting to find out if changing the preamps and driver tubes has as much effect for bass with the current SVT3Pro compared to guitar amps old & new where the 12AX7's can make a huge difference and usually do.

Best Regards,

MBSetzer

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