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Vintage threads from the first ten years

Re: Heavy metal

9/1/2000 1:40 AM

Eric H

Re: Heavy metal

Jay,

quote:
"Political Philosophy"

Isn't that an oxymoron?

-Eric

9/1/2000 3:59 PM
Jay Doyle	You were obviously thinking of "Political Ethics." Since graduation, I have never used my degree. My father is so proud. Jay Doyle

8/30/2000 7:25 PM
Steve A.	To answer one of your contentions... R.G. I contend that the order of assembly of identical parts makes no difference, given that it is done in a good, competent and workmanlike manner. Speaking theoretically, I could imagine a temperature-sensitive component (let's call it "X") being altered if it was soldered into the circuit prior to a heavier component which required a lot of heat (such as the ground lug on a jack already secured to a thick metal chassis). The heat could be tranferred to "X" through a short length of solid wire being soldered to the ground lug thus altering its characteristics... Of course, your condition that the work be done in a "good, competent and workmanlike manner" would preclude such a possibility. (Who but a total dumbsht would let a circuit "cook" like that while trying to solder a wire onto a ground lug connected to a heavy chassis? Oops! I've done that myself... just ignore that last remark!) Steve Ahola P.S. What is it with the "workmanlike" clause in so many contracts anyway? As compared to what? Foremanlike conduct? Managerial incompetence? I always thought that "workman" was an insult... "Oh that? It was just a workman* that they sent out. I was hoping that they would have sent out a real craftsman when they replaced my toilet..."

8/30/2000 7:25 PM

Steve A.

To answer one of your contentions...

R.G.

I contend that the order of assembly of identical parts makes no difference, given that it is done in a good, competent and workmanlike manner.

    Speaking theoretically, I could imagine a temperature-sensitive component (let's call it "X") being altered if it was soldered into the circuit prior to a heavier component which required a lot of heat (such as the ground lug on a jack already secured to a thick metal chassis). The heat could be tranferred to "X" through a short length of solid wire being soldered to the ground lug thus altering its characteristics...

    Of course, your condition that the work be done in a "good, competent and workmanlike manner" would preclude such a possibility. (Who but a total dumbsh*t would let a circuit "cook" like that while trying to solder a wire onto a ground lug connected to a heavy chassis? Oops! I've done that myself... just ignore that last remark!)

Steve Ahola

P.S. What is it with the "workmanlike" clause in so many contracts anyway? As compared to what? Foremanlike conduct? Managerial incompetence?

    I always thought that "workman" was an insult... "Oh that? It was just a workman that they sent out. I was hoping that they would have sent out a real craftsman when they replaced my toilet..."

8/30/2000 11:35 PM
R.G.	Yeah, using... er... "creative" soldering technique could be responsible for "adjusting" the value of every component. However, my mind boggles at the idea of not only planning the N factorial permutations of component orders, but then having to plan the soldering times so that the last time you touch a joint the first, middle and last components all reach the right amount of temperature and time at just the moment you pull the soldering iron away. Anybody who is that good could just do the design in his head for a circuit where he picked parts that were already where he wanted them to be, and so the "cooked in order" stuff wouldn't be necessary. And if the maker didn't know where he was going until after soldering, we'd get almost as good a result by having a million monkeys mess with soldering irons and parts for a few megayears. Equally likely, you know. Then, too, the "adjustments" I've seen in parts have been monotonically worse. Yeah - "good, workmanlike manner"; seems to me that there ought to be a Dilbert cartoon about that one.

8/30/2000 11:35 PM

R.G.

Yeah, using... er... "creative" soldering technique could be responsible for "adjusting" the value of every component. However, my mind boggles at the idea of not only planning the N factorial permutations of component orders, but then having to plan the soldering times so that the last time you touch a joint the first, middle and last components all reach the right amount of temperature and time at just the moment you pull the soldering iron away.

Anybody who is *that* good could just do the design in his head for a circuit where he picked parts that were already where he wanted them to be, and so the "cooked in order" stuff wouldn't be necessary. And if the maker didn't know where he was going until after soldering, we'd get almost as good a result by having a million monkeys mess with soldering irons and parts for a few megayears. 8-)

Equally likely, you know.

Then, too, the "adjustments" I've seen in parts have been monotonically worse.

Yeah - "good, workmanlike manner"; seems to me that there ought to be a Dilbert cartoon about that one.

8/31/2000 7:47 AM
jacques	Dilbert no, Robotman yes. RG, I realize I forgot to say something important, at least with that discusssion. My solder points are big: at least 5mm thick and more for the ground jonction. This means that my circuit is somewhat 3D compared to factory circuits. You have the plan of the board and some kind of solder prongs where there is a components knot. (It is hard to describe: a pic will be more convenient). It means that the first component in that little ball of solder, is covered and shielded by the next one, etc... The fist component connection is nearly touching the phenolic board while the last one can be as far as 5mm from there, on the top of it. I hope you understand my explanation. does this look less 'astrology' to you? please comment. jacques

8/31/2000 7:47 AM

jacques

Dilbert no, Robotman yes.

RG,
I realize I forgot to say something important, at least with that discusssion.
My solder points are big: at least 5mm thick and more for the ground jonction.
This means that my circuit is somewhat 3D compared to factory circuits.
You have the plan of the board and some kind of solder prongs where there is a components knot.
(It is hard to describe: a pic will be more convenient).
It means that the first component in that little ball of solder, is covered and shielded by the next one, etc...
The fist component connection is nearly touching the phenolic board while the last one can be as far as 5mm from there, on the top of it.
I hope you understand my explanation.
does this look less 'astrology' to you?
please comment.
jacques

8/31/2000 1:14 PM

R.G.

quote:
"The fist component connection is nearly touching the phenolic board while the last one can be as far as 5mm from there, on the top of it. I hope you understand my explanation.
does this look less 'astrology' to you?
please comment."

I understand the description.

This is not intended as criticism of you, your pedal, or your circuits, merely technical commentary. Yes, it looks less like astrology and more like poor technique.

I was taught that what you describe is a poor way to build circuits. Solder is not metal paste, and the correct amount of solder on a joint is an amount that just barely covers and wets the component leads; you should still be able to clearly see the outlines of the component leads in the solder.

If your junctions are 5mm thick, and if you do not remelt the whole joint each time a component is added, you can have high resistance or marginal interfaces between the newly added solder and the earlier solder. Such joints can be mechanically fragile, and change resistance over time with oxidation.

The proper way to solder a point-to-point joint is to insert the component lead and wrap the excess lead one turn into place so it stays clamped in place by the wrap, then cut off the excess lead. Once all leads are in the intended junction, you should be able to measure electrical connection between all the leads *with no solder at all* on the joint, and the components should stay in place all by themselves. The joint should be mechanically and electrically solid without solder at all.

Once the pieces are in place, then you solder the joint, with the minimum solder that will wet all the component leads and terminal surface. No more. Using more solder is an invitation to shorting, extra blobs of solder getting loose and shorting out things, and not properly wetting the leads or terminal inside the joint. Improper internal wetting makes the joint susceptible to early failure.

Yes, I can well imagine that the order of adding components does make a difference if you use what I think you're describing. However, the performance can not be expected to *stay* what it is, and the unit will be subject to early failures.

This is one reason I used the terms I did about the building techinques - poor soldering gives odd and unpredictable results. Good soldering gives definite, predictable results. You mention military components on your web page. I am certain that the US military and probably the French military have specifications on how point to point electronics should be wired. The specifications will describe something much like I outlined, but in greater detail.

I think it would be much more useful to you and to anyone who buys one of your pedals if you produced them with reliable soldering techniques and adjusted the component values if necessary to make up for the use of good, reliable solder joints.

8/31/2000 1:48 PM
jacques	French army dreamers ah! we came to one point. my 'big' solder points are correctly melted down everytime I add a component and I can assure you it is made to look like an old Fender amp circuit. Do you remember them? Open a '52 deluxe or even a '65 deluxe by the way. Well, as I cannot imagine some more beautiful electronic device, I have copied the way they are made.And the solders are generous. This kind of solder have a thickness. come one: I know you are a good tech. How many pedals are sick just because a small solder point on the circuit was broken because some excited singer shoot in the box? On the contrary, how many solders in an old Fender have you ever seen broken? I have wanted my pedal to be SHOCKPROOF from the start, using wire you can bend 1000 times without cutting and these famous 'big' solders inspired of the legendary Fender amps. My solders are big, but clean,shiny and homogene like a tiny flipper bawls. About military, please read my site: This concerns only my Deluxe Fuzz Face. And I only talk about 'military components' and not the military specs evoked in my HIWATT pages. (Funny, my work on Fuzz Faces is inspired on your own litterature, it's a small world.). Marseille,France where I live is a big port.During WWII , every army of the world has been staying here, and mainly marine. One man, my friend and mentor, Mr BRESNER, has decided to buy the huge stock of armies electronic surplus and to make commmerce of it. Unlike other places in the world, ALL electronics that could be found was stocked in only one warehouse. I have at my disposition TONS of first grade electronics devices and parts, all of them made with war specs, and most of them from US and English army from 1944 to 1960' (after this date it is mainly French). I just have to choose what I need, under the wise adviece of Mr.BRESNER. Just as an example, I could sell you NOS in the box GE 5881 tubes and still have enough for my big Fender amp collection. I currently work on English stuff, taking MULLARD transistors from unknown devices and test them in Fuzz Faces. So believe me, I say the truth when I talk about serious military components in my deluxe fuzz face. jacques http://www.ts808.com p.s.: You may be interested in my new found AC188 transistor: It really is PERFECT for Fuzz Face, as it seems to be a scale-down 9v version of the AC128 ( which can take more voltage), has a huge , beautiful sound, and does not need to be sorted: all my stock seem to have the proper gain.

8/31/2000 1:48 PM

jacques

French army dreamers

ah!
we came to one point.

my 'big' solder points are correctly melted down everytime I add a component and I can assure you it is made to look like an old Fender amp circuit.
Do you remember them?
Open a '52 deluxe or even a '65 deluxe by the way.
Well, as I cannot imagine some more beautiful electronic device, I have copied the way they are made.And the solders are generous.
This kind of solder have a thickness.
come one: I know you are a good tech.
How many pedals are sick just because a small solder point on the circuit was broken because some excited singer shoot in the box?
On the contrary, how many solders in an old Fender have you ever seen broken?
I have wanted my pedal to be SHOCKPROOF from the start, using wire you can bend 1000 times without cutting and these famous 'big' solders inspired of the legendary Fender amps.
My solders are big, but clean,shiny and homogene like a tiny flipper bawls.

About military, please read my site:
This concerns only my Deluxe Fuzz Face.
And I only talk about 'military components' and not the military specs evoked in my HIWATT pages.
(Funny, my work on Fuzz Faces is inspired on your own litterature, it's a small world.).
Marseille,France where I live is a big port.During WWII , every army of the world has been staying here, and mainly marine.
One man, my friend and mentor, Mr BRESNER, has decided to buy the huge stock of armies electronic surplus and to make commmerce of it.
Unlike other places in the world, ALL electronics that could be found was stocked in only one warehouse.
I have at my disposition TONS of first grade electronics devices and parts, all of them made with war specs, and most of them from US and English army from 1944 to 1960' (after this date it is mainly French).
I just have to choose what I need, under the wise adviece of Mr.BRESNER.
Just as an example, I could sell you NOS in the box GE 5881 tubes and still have enough for my big Fender amp collection.
I currently work on English stuff, taking MULLARD transistors from unknown devices and test them in Fuzz Faces.
So believe me, I say the truth when I talk about serious military components in my deluxe fuzz face.
jacques
http://www.ts808.com
p.s.: You may be interested in my new found AC188 transistor: It really is PERFECT for Fuzz Face, as it seems to be a scale-down 9v version of the AC128 ( which can take more voltage), has a huge , beautiful sound, and does not need to be sorted: all my stock seem to have the proper gain.

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