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Vintage threads from the first ten years

Re: Chaos Theory and coffee

8/30/2000 11:09 PM

Pete

Re: Chaos Theory and coffee

Jacques,

Fine if you like to believe that changing parts order has an affect on tone.

To me, the things that would really have an impact on tone would be
- Changing parts values
- The part tolerances

The only reason (to my knowledge) is for stray RF pickup and to fit a curtain amount of parts onto a given board size.

quote:
"I am convinced that if you and I will build the same fuzzbox, they will sound different."

As for this, I believe that if two different people make the EXACT same circuit with the EXACT same parts with EXACTLY the same tolerences no matter what the parts placement, they'll sound the same (well enough so that no one could tell the difference.

I'm sure half the circuits I build on perf board don't sound any different to some of the comercial pedals available. To a curtain extent, you can even change parts and they still sound the same. Why? Because a circuit is a circuit.

Pete

8/30/2000 8:26 AM
jacques	Heavy metal well, color no but, while I have never conducted experiment on them, I tend to believe than metal composition and density can make a difference. Have you felt in your hand the housing of an original Fuzz Face? What would you choose to host your beloved circuit? this or a small Danelectro plastic box? I am not going to be the fussy fuzz preacher here, but when you build your own device, you really want the best parts. I have started to believe to this kind of things when manufacturers began to use low quality components in their amps or effects, having SCIENTIFIC PROOF these won't change the sound, and ended up with tonal shadows of their ancesters. What would you choose? An original TS808 or a soundtank TS5? About the A and C calculations, let's say it is much more simple than this.It is a sort of hierarchy of the components depending on their role in the circuit.Just like a painter who has an order for the colors.

8/30/2000 8:26 AM

jacques

Heavy metal

well, color no but, while I have never conducted experiment on them, I tend to believe than metal composition and density can make a difference.
Have you felt in your hand the housing of an original Fuzz Face?
What would you choose to host your beloved circuit?
this or a small Danelectro plastic box?

I am not going to be the fussy fuzz preacher here, but when you build your own device, you really want the best parts.

I have started to believe to this kind of things when manufacturers began to use low quality components in their amps or effects, having SCIENTIFIC PROOF these won't change the sound, and ended up with tonal shadows of their ancesters.

What would you choose?
An original TS808 or a soundtank TS5?

About the A and C calculations, let's say it is much more simple than this.It is a sort of hierarchy of the components depending on their role in the circuit.Just like a painter who has an order for the colors.

8/30/2000 12:02 PM
Hi	RE: Too much time on one's hands jacque, I'm not sure I explained myself well. I'm saying that the order of soldered components, coffee, astrology, etc. are all similar in this respect; I'm prepared to accept (provisionally, of course) that EVERYTHING in the universe MAY affect everything else, to some degree or another. How much that is, or how much time and effort I'm willing to expend on figuring out any one piece of it, depends. Basically, if you think what you make sounds "better", go for it. But there's only 24 hours in a day, and a person only gets so many days to live, so I personally prefer to spend my time dealing with things in as realistic and pragmatic way as possible. I guess I'm trying to say you may not be crazy, but you better check to make sure. Hope this doesn't seem insulting; after all, I'm a musician, I probably am crazy! Hi

8/30/2000 12:02 PM

RE: Too much time on one's hands

jacque,
I'm not sure I explained myself well. I'm saying that the order of soldered components, coffee, astrology, etc. are all similar in this respect; I'm prepared to accept (provisionally, of course) that EVERYTHING in the universe MAY affect everything else, to *some* degree or another. How much that is, or how much time and effort I'm willing to expend on figuring out any one piece of it, depends. Basically, if you think what you make sounds "better", go for it. But there's only 24 hours in a day, and a person only gets so many days to live, so I personally prefer to spend my time dealing with things in as realistic and pragmatic way as possible. I guess I'm trying to say you may not be crazy, but you better check to make sure. Hope this doesn't seem insulting; after all, I'm a musician, I probably *am* crazy!
Hi

8/30/2000 5:07 PM
Ed Rembold	This is an interesting thread, but some-what worrysome. Jacques, I think you'd do well in the advertising world. (no offence is intended) Ed R.

8/30/2000 5:14 PM
Jay Doyle	This thread just solidifies my belief that the best benchmark for tone is your own ears. FWIW, Jay Doyle

8/30/2000 8:32 PM
Mark Hammer	Well, yes and no. Yes, because specs or other component specifics never tell the whole story, and because tastes and requirements can vary with context and purpose. It should sound good because it sounds good, not because it is supposed to sound good. No, because nobody ever uses JUST their ears. They always use their memory, and memory is exceedingly fallible. This is why blind A/B tests are essential, and why there is such a rich heritage of methodologies for the psychophysiological study of human sensation and perception. People can think they hear all kinds of stuff one minute, and turn around and be unable to hear all kinds of stuff the next. As they listen, they interpret their current experience, using recollections of past experience as a benchmark or reference point. So not only do you and I differ with respect to the mental benchmark for what we think a BMP is supposed to sound like; we probably also differ within ourselves from month to month. There is a part of me that says there are an infinite variety of distortion devices. There have to be, when you consider the universe of possibilities for balance of harmonics, transient distortion, etc. Then I go to Tone Frenzy, or simply plug in a bunch of the things I've made, and it's like the auditory equivalent of looking at a wall of lipstick shades; jeez, they're ALL red. Once in a while you hear something that seems qualitatively different, but then you listen to something that is SUPPOSED to be different, you KNOW its different on paper, you expect it to be different, and it sounds exactly like everything else. So, ears may well be a benchmark for aesthetic appreciation - I trust people to know what they like. But, are ears a benchmark for comparison, and especially comparison used as a substitute for systematic measurement of technology? I have my doubts. On the other hand, one has magazines like Absolute Sound that are supported by a community that believes very strongly in a different view. Me, I try not to knock other peoples' religion.

8/30/2000 8:32 PM

Mark Hammer

Well, yes and no.

Yes, because specs or other component specifics never tell the whole story, and because tastes and requirements can vary with context and purpose. It should sound good because it sounds good, not because it is supposed to sound good.

No, because nobody ever uses JUST their ears. They always use their memory, and memory is exceedingly fallible. This is why blind A/B tests are essential, and why there is such a rich heritage of methodologies for the psychophysiological study of human sensation and perception. People can think they hear all kinds of stuff one minute, and turn around and be unable to hear all kinds of stuff the next. As they listen, they interpret their current experience, using recollections of past experience as a benchmark or reference point. So not only do you and I differ with respect to the mental benchmark for what we think a BMP is supposed to sound like; we probably also differ within ourselves from month to month.

There is a part of me that says there are an infinite variety of distortion devices. There have to be, when you consider the universe of possibilities for balance of harmonics, transient distortion, etc. Then I go to Tone Frenzy, or simply plug in a bunch of the things I've made, and it's like the auditory equivalent of looking at a wall of lipstick shades; jeez, they're ALL red. Once in a while you hear something that seems qualitatively different, but then you listen to something that is SUPPOSED to be different, you KNOW its different on paper, you expect it to be different, and it sounds exactly like everything else.

So, ears may well be a benchmark for aesthetic appreciation - I trust people to know what they like. But, are ears a benchmark for comparison, and especially comparison used as a substitute for systematic measurement of technology? I have my doubts.

On the other hand, one has magazines like Absolute Sound that are supported by a community that believes very strongly in a different view. Me, I try not to knock other peoples' religion.

8/31/2000 4:16 PM
Jay Doyle	Damn. They didn't cover all of that in my intro to Psych class. What the hell am I going to do with this Political Philosophy degree on my wall? Mark, thanks for filling in the blanks, apparently there were a lot of them. Jay Doyle

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