Tube Amps / Music Electronics
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|8/29/2000 1:18 AM|
||Chaos Theory and Parts Assembly Order|
I've moved the subject discussion out here for ease of reference.
So what's the deal, Jacques? Why have the comments about the order of assembly of the parts vanished? Do you no longer contend that the order of assembly of parts matters?
But I digress. OK, you admit that you're advertising for customers with commercial intent. OK, fine, I have no problem with that, never did. My problem was with you pretending you didn't.
You are arguing the wrong point. You contended that assembling identical parts in a different order contributed to better tone. I contend that the order of assembly of identical parts makes no difference, given that it is done in a good, competent and workmanlike manner. The actual performance of the result, be it incredibly good or miserable, has no bearing on whether there is a difference or not.
You're ducking the issue, Jacques. The issue isn't whether your pedal or my pedal or anyone's carefully hand crafted, polished, painted, pedal sounds better or not. The issue is that you said that parts assembled in a certain order sounded better. I contend that identical parts assembled in any time order will sound very much the same.
Do you have any response to that? Yes, or no?
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|8/29/2000 2:48 PM|
ok now we came to a precise point I eventually understand: you want scientific evidence of the way I assemble components is better in some way (tone or noise or anything).
here is my answer:
1-No, I do not have any scientific evidence to show.
2-But, yes there really is a tonal improvement.
3-And, I have never used this argument to sell the pedal.
What can I say?
I came to this process through experiment, A/B-ing the PTP/'order' version v/s the PTP version v/s the PCB version of my circuit with a group of fellow guitarist and we all came to the same conclusion.
I really think you are better qualified to investigate the reasons why.
I have made a MIT-type school in France but we were more concerned by relativity and Maxwell equations than by 'simple' hobby electronics.
Be sure I regret it.
Have I been clear ?
Concerning repair, I was only refering to MY pedal.
The nature of its construction does not allow components replacement, unless massive desoldering which will take more time than making a new circuit.
Do not hesitate to ask more precision on any point.
p.s.: RG , do you like the sound of the Fuse Blower ?
|8/30/2000 1:53 PM|
That's what I have thought since the first. You baldly assert that there is a difference and that whatever you have touched in the proper order is better somehow in a way that cannot be measured.
This effect **is** well documented in both psychology and hifi circles. It's a form of unintentional self deception. I can dig you up some references if you like. And yes, to *you* it does sound better. To other people, the listening may be quite different. That's why I was going on about measurement, fairly constructed tests, and independently verifiable results. These are all things that have been developed to remove self deception and biases from preference testing.
This is a key factor in the kinds of self deception that happen, especially with sound equipment. Yes, you really do hear it as better. That says ...nothing... about whether other people will hear it as better.
If that is truly the case, I apologize on that one point. I believed I saw the comments on your web page. Since I did not copy them, I have no data other than my memory, which is subject to the same set of problems as your parts-order theory. I retract the statement for lack of proof.
You might consider doing the same.
I think I have found the reasons.
Do I then take it that you *do* believe that a specially parts-order-assembled pedal can be repaired to the original sound?
As I said, this is irrelevant to the issues I'm interested in.
|8/29/2000 3:01 PM|
comments about parts order have always only be here on the discussion.
I have NEVER put them on my site.
you can check the progression of the discussion to verify this.
You really are suspicious, thinking I could have CANCELED them after your remarks.
all this ( guitars, amps,fuzz boxes ) is supposed to be fun you know.cool.
|8/29/2000 6:28 PM|
A Fuzz Face has 9 components on the board. How am I to know which of the 362,880 combinations of assembly order will have the "best" tone, unless I build them all and compare?
Even worse, in my clone there are 43 soldered joints - that's 6.0 x 10^52 permutations.
Fortunately, the order of assembly has as much relevance as the colour of the box I put it in.
|8/30/2000 6:16 AM|
Some thoughts on this thread:
1) We obviously have reached an impasse on the search for quantitative data about the order in which parts are installed in a device;
2) As far as guitarists deciding that the "order-sensitive PTP" version sounded "better" than others is just the usual subjective stuff (after all, as we've all gone on about Eric Johnson may or may not be able to actually hear a difference in which end of the fuse is inserted into an amp, but as long as he does or thinks he does he's going to do it whichever way sounds "better" to him); this is like my contention that I can tell the difference between alkaline and carbon batteries in some types of fx boxes, or some types in proximity to others, but no difference in other boxes- I can hear the differences because I use the same gear over and over, I probably couldn't hope to tell about others' gear, and might *not* be able to tell with my own if I were listening to a recording of my gear at a later time, in other words, subjective ideas of what sounds "better" are just not (at least at this point in time) scientifically discernable;
3) chaos theory isn't about randomness, but the *non-randomness* of apparently random patterns. So I'm prepared to believe that the concept of what order components are put in a device might have some effect, and some people might like one version's sound "better" than another, I just think it probably doesn't, and if it does it's too much to worry about. IanR's post makes that pretty clear; if we're gonna worry about exactly which order to do the components in a stompbox are going to be soldered in, well hell, that's just more crap to worry about (even worse than "which of the 10,000 aftermarket strat pickups will make me sound BEST?!?"). If jacque and his friends can tell a difference, or THINK they can, more power to them. He obviously has a LOT more loose time on his hands than I do!
|8/30/2000 8:49 AM|
||Re: Chaos Theory and coffee|
thanks for the intelligent thoughts.
Chaos theory is at its enfancy.
And it is very promising.
I have an example:
Have you noticed every house has its coffee?
I mean, coffee taste seems to me different in every home I go, while it is always the same if I call the same home after 2 months.
they can change coffee brand, coffee machine, mother, sister etc... and end up with the same coffee.
Or you can use same brand and machine than your neighbour and still have YOUR coffee.
Italian people, real coffee connoiseur to my eyes, have 100 of theories on that.But I observed the same 'home coffee' effect in every italian house I have called.
I am convinced that if you and I will build the same fuzzbox, they will sound different.
The reality lies in the size of the difference.
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