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Vintage threads from the first ten years

Re: Best DIY Envelope filter pedal? any opinons

5/1/2000 5:04 PM
Gus	Re: Best DIY Envelope filter pedal? any opinons Lovetone is based in England.

5/2/2000 1:24 PM
Mark Hammer	I wouldn't get too obsessive about it. Bear in mind that envelope follower modules are not exactly that recent. In the days of modular analog synthesis (which still exist in the form of an interesting sub-sulture), an envelope follower could be followed by anything you wanted, without any obligation to use it to drive a filter directly. That anyone would remember this and provide insertion loops prior to the filter section itself is no big surprise. If anything, EH's corporate decision to actually do this is probably the first (and maybe only) homage to innovation they've had in the last 18 years. I like their products, but sheesh, GET WITH THE PROGRAM, MIKE!!! In many ways, EH still hasn't caught up to where PAiA was in 1975. I had forgotten the Lovetone Meatball, and am glad I was reminded of it. At the moment, this is probably the holy grail of analog units in the arena of envelope controlled filters. Tweak satori.

5/2/2000 1:24 PM

Mark Hammer

I wouldn't get too obsessive about it. Bear in mind that envelope follower modules are not exactly that recent. In the days of modular analog synthesis (which still exist in the form of an interesting sub-sulture), an envelope follower could be followed by anything you wanted, without any obligation to use it to drive a filter directly. That anyone would remember this and provide insertion loops prior to the filter section itself is no big surprise. If anything, EH's corporate decision to actually do this is probably the first (and maybe only) homage to innovation they've had in the last 18 years. I *like* their products, but sheesh, GET WITH THE PROGRAM, MIKE!!! In many ways, EH still hasn't caught up to where PAiA was in 1975.

I had forgotten the Lovetone Meatball, and am glad I was reminded of it. At the moment, this is probably the holy grail of analog units in the arena of envelope controlled filters. Tweak satori.

4/30/2000 5:34 PM
peter	Hi RG, I'm interested to order one of your Neutron boards, but am wondering what you use for lightsource & detector, and is it readily available? thanks, peter

4/28/2000 12:39 PM
CJ Landry	The Edie Brikell tune uses a Mutron III and I built the Neutron from GEO. It sounds good and just like the "What I am" tune. However, be careful if you use the on board ICL7660 portion of the Neutron, it has a backward cap at the input which prevents the -9V from inverting the +V. Unless RG has corrected this already. CJ Landry

4/28/2000 1:45 PM
Mark Hammer	I was always under the impression that both Garcia and the "what I am" tones were an MXR Envelope Filter. I had one at the time and could nail these tones perfectly. On the other hand, I never owned a Mutron (though I had a Univox Funky Filter, which I understand was close), so I don't know how much they overlapped in terms of capability. I will say that almost every ECF that I've ever played or made has its own personality. There are all sorts of envelope extraction circuits, all sorts of easily tunable filters designs, and all sorts of tunable elements for those filters. Put them all together and you get a LOT of permutations and combinations of tone and feel. What a lot of players eager to get one don't understand is that the responsiveness of the unit to YOUR guitar signal and YOUR playing style is an essential part of the tone produced. Given that most people want one because they heard one on disc and thought it was cool (which it IS, of course), they still have no sense of how it matches their hands and axe and material, and may well be disappointed when the bring it home. Case in point: The Dr. Q (now out of production but easily clone-able; see Jack Orman's site for ideas and circuits) has a nifty couple of sounds. Unfortunately, the stock DQ has an inflexible attack/decay structure, and the sweep rate just isn't right for a whole lot of songs that would sound great with an ECF in there. Not only that, it sometimes isn't sensitive enough. I made a few clones that I was happy with at home (home-made PU's, on-board pre-amp), and brought them into a vintage store to A/B them against the "real thing". The clone was identical in tone, but the guitar the shop guy took down off the wall couldn't really push the envelope detector hard enough to make more than the last 10-20% of rotation in the sensitivity pot useful. Now you CAN stick a booster or overdrive in between axe and effect to push harder, but what if you want to filter a clean sound? Should you need to change pickups or buy another clean boost just to use the pedal? That doesn't make the DQ a bad unit. Far from it. I recommend building one. BUT, it goes to show you that you'll need to be fussy, and probably bring your own guitar into the store when trying one out (or own a guitar just like the one in the store). Selecting an ECF is a question of best fit, not best tone. Personally I always stick up for the MXR Envelope Filter around here. It doesn't have the biggest array of tones (the Mutron/Q-Tron/Neutron wins hands down here), but between the continuously variable attack time and wide-ranging sensitivity control, it is very capable of matching the needs of a tune. Perhaps Dunlop will see fit to reissue it, given that dance music has raised the profile of filters, and the MXR-EF uses no components that are not still easily obtainable.

4/28/2000 1:45 PM

Mark Hammer

I was always under the impression that both Garcia and the "what I am" tones were an MXR Envelope Filter. I had one at the time and could nail these tones perfectly. On the other hand, I never owned a Mutron (though I had a Univox Funky Filter, which I understand was close), so I don't know how much they overlapped in terms of capability.

I will say that almost every ECF that I've ever played or made has its own personality. There are all sorts of envelope extraction circuits, all sorts of easily tunable filters designs, and all sorts of tunable elements for those filters. Put them all together and you get a LOT of permutations and combinations of tone and feel.

What a lot of players eager to get one don't understand is that the responsiveness of the unit to YOUR guitar signal and YOUR playing style is an essential part of the tone produced. Given that most people want one because they heard one on disc and thought it was cool (which it IS, of course), they still have no sense of how it matches their hands and axe and material, and may well be disappointed when the bring it home.

Case in point: The Dr. Q (now out of production but easily clone-able; see Jack Orman's site for ideas and circuits) has a nifty couple of sounds. Unfortunately, the stock DQ has an inflexible attack/decay structure, and the sweep rate just isn't right for a whole lot of songs that would sound great with an ECF in there. Not only that, it sometimes isn't sensitive enough. I made a few clones that I was happy with at home (home-made PU's, on-board pre-amp), and brought them into a vintage store to A/B them against the "real thing". The clone was identical in tone, but the guitar the shop guy took down off the wall couldn't really push the envelope detector hard enough to make more than the last 10-20% of rotation in the sensitivity pot useful. Now you CAN stick a booster or overdrive in between axe and effect to push harder, but what if you want to filter a clean sound? Should you need to change pickups or buy another clean boost just to use the pedal?

That doesn't make the DQ a bad unit. Far from it. I recommend building one. BUT, it goes to show you that you'll need to be fussy, and probably bring your own guitar into the store when trying one out (or own a guitar just like the one in the store). Selecting an ECF is a question of best fit, not best tone.

Personally I always stick up for the MXR Envelope Filter around here. It doesn't have the biggest array of tones (the Mutron/Q-Tron/Neutron wins hands down here), but between the continuously variable attack time and wide-ranging sensitivity control, it is very capable of matching the needs of a tune. Perhaps Dunlop will see fit to reissue it, given that dance music has raised the profile of filters, and the MXR-EF uses no components that are not still easily obtainable.

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