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Vintage threads from the first ten years

Re: PC Studio Integration

4/14/1999 10:59 PM
Steve A.	Re: PC Studio Integration Gus: I did not pursue the idea of adding the Roland SCSI adaptor to my VS-840 when I learned that it ONLY allowed you to use an external ZIP drive. (I was thinking that I could use a SCSI hd at least for backing up data but that option was not mentioned.) The VS-840 has to talk to the SCSI bus to give the SCSI device specific instructions- right? So maybe the VS-840 only knows how to "talk" to a ZIP drive... Perhaps someone could design a SCSI "converter" that would translate the ZIP drive instruction set into something that a hard drive could understand! (By the time that would happen, cheaper hard drives would make the VS-840 a dinosaur, discontinued by Roland.) Thanks for the tip— I'll have to check out that link! Steve Ahola

4/14/1999 10:59 PM

Steve A.

Re: PC Studio Integration

Gus:

I did not pursue the idea of adding the Roland SCSI adaptor to my VS-840 when I learned that it ONLY allowed you to use an external ZIP drive. (I was thinking that I could use a SCSI hd at least for backing up data but that option was not mentioned.) The VS-840 has to talk to the SCSI bus to give the SCSI device specific instructions- right? So maybe the VS-840 only knows how to "talk" to a ZIP drive... Perhaps someone could design a SCSI "converter" that would translate the ZIP drive instruction set into something that a hard drive could understand! (By the time that would happen, cheaper hard drives would make the VS-840 a dinosaur, discontinued by Roland.)

Thanks for the tip— I'll have to check out that link!

Steve Ahola

4/30/1999 3:16 PM
MJ Harnish	My guess here is that a SCSI hard drive would work just fine but you'd need a SCSI-2 drive (which I don't think are made anymore though I'm sure you could find one used on Ebay) and that's why they only mention the Zip drive. However, it's possible the VS-840 just can't access more than a 100mb disk due to software limitations. As an alternative idea: Since the VS-840's SCSI can only be used for back-up, why not just invest in an internal zip drive for your computer and then back up the data to a CD-R (which of course would require that you own a CD-R but that's another worthy investment)? It would be much cheaper and easier, not to mention a zip drive on a PC is a useful item, whereas a SCSI hard drive that just there as a back-up is kind of a waste of money IMO. MJ

4/30/1999 3:16 PM

MJ Harnish

My guess here is that a SCSI hard drive would work just fine but you'd need a SCSI-2 drive (which I don't think are made anymore though I'm sure you could find one used on Ebay) and that's why they only mention the Zip drive. However, it's possible the VS-840 just can't access more than a 100mb disk due to software limitations.

As an alternative idea: Since the VS-840's SCSI can only be used for back-up, why not just invest in an internal zip drive for your computer and then back up the data to a CD-R (which of course would require that you own a CD-R but that's another worthy investment)? It would be much cheaper and easier, not to mention a zip drive on a PC is a useful item, whereas a SCSI hard drive that just there as a back-up is kind of a waste of money IMO.

MJ

4/30/1999 9:28 PM
Steve A.	MJ: I'd been waiting for several years for ZIP drives to drop in price to a reasonable figure (which they finally did!) but now they have the 250MB SuperZIP drives, once again for that magic number: $199.95. With the hd space getting cheaper everyday and competition from other formats for removable storage I believe that SuperZIP drives will drop considerly within a year... (100 megs is just pocket change these days! < g > Steve Ahola P.S. As for the actual SCSI capabilities of the add-on board I didn't buy, I really ought to check with Roland customer/tech support to see exactly what SCSI devices it will support (it wouldn't be the first time one of their manuals had an error in it).

4/30/1999 9:28 PM

Steve A.

MJ:

I'd been waiting for several years for ZIP drives to drop in price to a reasonable figure (which they finally did!) but now they have the 250MB SuperZIP drives, once again for that magic number: $199.95. With the hd space getting cheaper everyday and competition from other formats for removable storage I believe that SuperZIP drives will drop considerly within a year... (100 megs is just pocket change these days! < g >

Steve Ahola

P.S. As for the actual SCSI capabilities of the add-on board I didn't buy, I really ought to check with Roland customer/tech support to see exactly what SCSI devices it will support (it wouldn't be the first time one of their manuals had an error in it).

4/29/1999 10:48 AM
MJ Harnish	Joe, I was in a similar situation a while back. After much debate I went with a PC-based hard-disk recording system. A lot depends on what you're looking for out of a recorder. The Roland 880 units are great (I've heard some great recordings done on them) but they sort of have a limit in terms of expandability (e.g., if you get an 880 you can't do more than 8 tracks) and they're not well suited for making recordings of a full band (micing a drum set can eat up 6+ channels easily). However, all of this might me moot if you're talking about working with a drum machine and/or can't afford to buy enough mics to completely mic a drum set anyways (I can't). The 880 definitely wins in terms of portability and ease of initial start up. Used 880's can be found for around $1000; a new one (the EX?) will set you back around $1400 or so (www.fullcompass.com has great prices for most stuff). From what I've read, you cannot record on all 8 channels simultaneously unless you use the built in audio compression (which I've heard has a negligible effect on quality on the lowest setting). The PC-recording route offers a ton of advantages in terms of expandability and overall quality but a lot of that comes at a price. Cakewalk Pro audio will set you back $250 and it's pretty useless without a sound card. Ok, buy yourself a decent soundcard (say a Gadget labs wave 4) and you're down another $250. Great, but you still don't have a mixer (which even if you don't need the mixer you need the mic preamps). A Mackie 1202 VLZ is about $250 new. However, you definitely need certain processors to do a decent job (a compressor is a must have for vocals). It's a $185 for an RNC. You can see how all this adds up. If you don't own a decent computer then things get really expensive from there (you really need a Pentium II system to use many current programs effectively). However, in the end you have a semi-pro studio where you're only limited by your ability to purchase add-ons, etc. You also have a lot more powerful way to implement midi stuff. You're CD-R ought to work just fine. So what did I end up buying? I bought the new Gadget Labs Wave 8/24 sound cards (8 ins/8 outs 24 bit recording; also has a midi port and 2 XLR ins & outs (the rest are 1/4") for $499) to use with my PII-233. I already had a Mackie 1202 so I saved on set-up costs there. My next purchase will be Cakewalk Pro Audio 8. Right now I'm using the free version of Cool Edit Pro that came with the 8/24 but it's been hobbled of course which limits some of the flexibility. However, it does just fine for now while I learn how to actually effectively use the equipment. Total investment so far is under $1100 (thankfully my other band members are splitting the bill with me), which includes a Rode NT-1 l.d. condenser mic and a RNC 1773 compressor. MJ

4/29/1999 10:48 AM

MJ Harnish

Joe,
I was in a similar situation a while back. After much debate I went with a PC-based hard-disk recording system. A lot depends on what you're looking for out of a recorder.

The Roland 880 units are great (I've heard some great recordings done on them) but they sort of have a limit in terms of expandability (e.g., if you get an 880 you can't do more than 8 tracks) and they're not well suited for making recordings of a full band (micing a drum set can eat up 6+ channels easily). However, all of this might me moot if you're talking about working with a drum machine and/or can't afford to buy enough mics to completely mic a drum set anyways (I can't). The 880 definitely wins in terms of portability and ease of initial start up. Used 880's can be found for around $1000; a new one (the EX?) will set you back around $1400 or so (www.fullcompass.com has great prices for most stuff). From what I've read, you cannot record on all 8 channels simultaneously unless you use the built in audio compression (which I've heard has a negligible effect on quality on the lowest setting).

The PC-recording route offers a ton of advantages in terms of expandability and overall quality but a lot of that comes at a price. Cakewalk Pro audio will set you back $250 and it's pretty useless without a sound card. Ok, buy yourself a decent soundcard (say a Gadget labs wave 4) and you're down another $250. Great, but you still don't have a mixer (which even if you don't need the mixer you need the mic preamps). A Mackie 1202 VLZ is about $250 new. However, you definitely need certain processors to do a decent job (a compressor is a must have for vocals). It's a $185 for an RNC. You can see how all this adds up. If you don't own a decent computer then things get really expensive from there (you really need a Pentium II system to use many current programs effectively). However, in the end you have a semi-pro studio where you're only limited by your ability to purchase add-ons, etc. You also have a lot more powerful way to implement midi stuff. You're CD-R ought to work just fine.

So what did I end up buying? I bought the new Gadget Labs Wave 8/24 sound cards (8 ins/8 outs 24 bit recording; also has a midi port and 2 XLR ins & outs (the rest are 1/4") for $499) to use with my PII-233. I already had a Mackie 1202 so I saved on set-up costs there. My next purchase will be Cakewalk Pro Audio 8. Right now I'm using the free version of Cool Edit Pro that came with the 8/24 but it's been hobbled of course which limits some of the flexibility. However, it does just fine for now while I learn how to actually effectively use the equipment. Total investment so far is under $1100 (thankfully my other band members are splitting the bill with me), which includes a Rode NT-1 l.d. condenser mic and a RNC 1773 compressor.

MJ

4/30/1999 9:37 PM
Steve A.	MJ: I believe that you can sync two VS-880's together for a total of 16 tracks, but that would essentially double your investment. With your computer-based system you could add a second card for an additional 8 ins and out- right? And if you still had a free PCI slot you could add a third board for a grand total of 24 ins/outs... Not bad for ~$2K! Steve Ahola

5/2/1999 8:13 AM
MJ Harnish	I believe so, but you're going to start running out of IRQ's at some point, not to mention you'd be hard pressed to record 24 tracks simultaneously without investing in some serious hard drive stuff (like a RAID controller). And actually the price would only be $1500 at that point ($499 each). For me 8 ins is about all I can ever imagine needing since that would be plenty for a typical drum kit and this is all a home recording set-up..

5/2/1999 8:13 AM

MJ Harnish

I believe so, but you're going to start running out of IRQ's at some point, not to mention you'd be hard pressed to record 24 tracks simultaneously without investing in some serious hard drive stuff (like a RAID controller). And actually the price would only be $1500 at that point ($499 each). For me 8 ins is about all I can ever imagine needing since that would be plenty for a typical drum kit and this is all a home recording set-up..

5/2/1999 2:19 PM
Steve A.	MJ BTW I did browse around the Roland site and they have articles there explaining how to sync several VS-880's together. As for the VS-840EX (w/ SCSI port), the only devices it supports are the 100meg and 250meg ZIP drives. But for VS-880/1680 owners, they have a long list of "non-Roland" SCSI hard drives that will work so you aren't stuck paying inflated prices for proprietary add-ons. However, there is a limit to the amount of HD space the various VS-880/1680's can address (starting at 4 gigs). Steve Ahola P.S. As for the ~2k figure I mentioned I added a thousand to your figure of $1100 (which I guess included the mic and compressor). For a whole new dedicated computer that Speed would need, I guess that would work out to under $2500 for 24 tracks! So does the GL Wave 8/24 card share the same IRQ for the MIDI port and the DA? If it doesn't, I guess that you could disable MIDI on all but the first card if needed. With 24 inputs I wasn't thinking of having all of them actively recording busy parts simultaneously, but more along the lines of not having to repatch your 8 inputs all of the time... But now that you brought it up, I wonder what the limitation of a typical modern hard drive would be in terms of channels recorded simultaneously at 44mhZ or 48mhz!

5/2/1999 2:19 PM

Steve A.

MJ

BTW I did browse around the Roland site and they have articles there explaining how to sync several VS-880's together. As for the VS-840EX (w/ SCSI port), the only devices it supports are the 100meg and 250meg ZIP drives. But for VS-880/1680 owners, they have a long list of "non-Roland" SCSI hard drives that will work so you aren't stuck paying inflated prices for proprietary add-ons. However, there is a limit to the amount of HD space the various VS-880/1680's can address (starting at 4 gigs).

Steve Ahola

P.S. As for the ~2k figure I mentioned I added a thousand to your figure of $1100 (which I guess included the mic and compressor). For a whole new dedicated computer that Speed would need, I guess that would work out to under $2500 for 24 tracks! So does the GL Wave 8/24 card share the same IRQ for the MIDI port and the DA? If it doesn't, I guess that you could disable MIDI on all but the first card if needed. With 24 inputs I wasn't thinking of having all of them actively recording busy parts simultaneously, but more along the lines of not having to repatch your 8 inputs all of the time... But now that you brought it up, I wonder what the limitation of a typical modern hard drive would be in terms of channels recorded simultaneously at 44mhZ or 48mhz!

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