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Vintage threads from the first ten years

Re: TS9 reissues.

10/30/1997 5:44 AM
R.G.	Re: TS9 reissues. Let me help - I muffed the note on the schematic about the ts808 and ts9 being an RC4558. (insert an embarassed smiley here) I'll mod the schematic. Thanks for pointing out my lapse. To the best of my knowlege, the original for the 808 and 9 was the "JRC4558D", and the 10 was the NJM. In fact, later production was a ??7558? in the 10, I believe. Great minds think alike. At least one of the requests the US rep for NJRC got about this was from me, about six weeks ago, looking for (a) history, and (b) supply. I do wonder about the parts marking comment, though. I was told that the NJM is the current production part, and was the current level of what had been the JRC4558, the new marking reflecting the improvements to processing that they had made over the years. She offered to make me a batch of NJM's marked "JRC" if I would order 1000 of them; also that the original JRC was available by special order, old process, for orders over 5000. This immediately raised in my mind the question about what I'd get if I DID order 5000 (which I couldn't afford, anyways). I didn't order them. As to the note about the "JRC" part being what most people prefer - the "JRC"'s that I have had have come from dealers in Japan supplying old stock. I have had several people order both the JRC's and RC's to replace NJM's and/or the 7558 part. I get back comments that the JRC part provides a smoother distortion than the NJM's. That is what the "seems to be what most people prefer" refers to - it's from actual comments on replacements, not the effects market in general, so it is a relatively informed comment on that part. I've had great difficulty getting more of the JRC's from the dealers I contact in Japan, which is why I was pestering NJRC. I decided to stay with the dealers and accept the difficulty getting old stock rather than the uncertaintly from NJRC. Actually, there are a number of opamps that work well in the TS circuit, besides the JRC. I have reports that the following produce a noticeably better sound than stock NJM or ??7558? parts: LM833 TLc2202 OP275 LT???? (I'll have to dig out my notes) The good sound seems to be related to graceful recovery from overload more than anything else. I theorize that the sudden change in gain when the opamp goes from diodes not conducting to conducting and vice versa tests the opamp ability to remain well controlled as the feedback changes dramatically, and that this is related to overload capability - but that is only a theory. This is clearly something I'm interested in, and I'd like to compare notes with you if you can get more data.

10/30/1997 5:44 AM

R.G.

Re: TS9 reissues.

Let me help - I muffed the note on the schematic about the ts808 and ts9 being an RC4558. (insert an embarassed smiley here) I'll mod the schematic. Thanks for pointing out my lapse.

To the best of my knowlege, the original for the 808 and 9 was the "JRC4558D", and the 10 was the NJM. In fact, later production was a ??7558? in the 10, I believe.

Great minds think alike. At least one of the requests the US rep for NJRC got about this was from me, about six weeks ago, looking for (a) history, and (b) supply. I do wonder about the parts marking comment, though. I was told that the NJM is the current production part, and was the current level of what had been the JRC4558, the new marking reflecting the improvements to processing that they had made over the years. She offered to make me a batch of NJM's marked "JRC" if I would order 1000 of them; also that the original JRC was available by special order, old process, for orders over 5000. This immediately raised in my mind the question about what I'd get if I DID order 5000 (which I couldn't afford, anyways). I didn't order them.

As to the note about the "JRC" part being what most people prefer - the "JRC"'s that I have had have come from dealers in Japan supplying old stock. I have had several people order both the JRC's and RC's to replace NJM's and/or the 7558 part. I get back comments that the JRC part provides a smoother distortion than the NJM's. That is what the "seems to be what most people prefer" refers to - it's from actual comments on replacements, not the effects market in general, so it is a relatively informed comment on that part.

I've had great difficulty getting more of the JRC's from the dealers I contact in Japan, which is why I was pestering NJRC. I decided to stay with the dealers and accept the difficulty getting old stock rather than the uncertaintly from NJRC.

Actually, there are a number of opamps that work well in the TS circuit, besides the JRC. I have reports that the following produce a noticeably better sound than stock NJM or ??7558? parts:

LM833
TLc2202
OP275
LT???? (I'll have to dig out my notes)

The good sound seems to be related to graceful recovery from overload more than anything else. I theorize that the sudden change in gain when the opamp goes from diodes not conducting to conducting and vice versa tests the opamp ability to remain well controlled as the feedback changes dramatically, and that this is related to overload capability - but that is only a theory.

This is clearly something I'm interested in, and I'd like to compare notes with you if you can get more data.

10/30/1997 9:25 AM
Y.	>Actually, there are a number of opamps that >work well in the TS circuit, besides the JRC. >I have reports that the following produce a >noticeably better sound than stock NJM or >??7558? parts: >LM833 >TLc2202 >OP275 >LT???? (I'll have to dig out my notes) My favorite overdrive pedal is a TS-9 reissue that was modded and switched to an LM883. The mod was done by an excellent blues guitarist here in D.C., Dru Lore, and I bought off him once he got bored with it. Anyway, the tone control was removed and the drive range significantly lowered. What he ended up with is a pedal where, with the drive down to zero and the Level halfway the sound was almost exactly like the dry signal (a little bit brighter), and with the Level control to full it was a clean boost up to maybe 2 1/2 times the dry level. The Drive control is limited to a nice blues overdrive (sort of like a tube amp witht the gain from 2 to 4) with extremely smooth tone. Anyway as a lead boost or blues overdrive it is the best pedal I've ever owned (and since Mike of "AnalogMan" was extremely helpful in removing the JFET switching so I could install a Carling DPDT switch, it has true bypassing). I keep putting off opening it up and making a schematic of the changes, maybe now it's time I done so (I just hate trying to get around those little dinky Ibanez boxes, may hat is off to all those people in Korea/Japan who assemble boxes for Boss and Ibanez). - Y. (wyatt poist)

10/30/1997 9:25 AM

>Actually, there are a number of opamps that
>work well in the TS circuit, besides the JRC.
>I have reports that the following produce a
>noticeably better sound than stock NJM or
>??7558? parts:

>LM833
>TLc2202
>OP275
>LT???? (I'll have to dig out my notes)

My favorite overdrive pedal is a TS-9 reissue that was modded and switched to an LM883. The mod was done by an excellent blues guitarist here in D.C., Dru Lore, and I bought off him once he got bored with it.

Anyway, the tone control was removed and the drive range significantly lowered. What he ended up with is a pedal where, with the drive down to zero and the Level halfway the sound was almost exactly like the dry signal (a little bit brighter), and with the Level control to full it was a clean boost up to maybe 2 1/2 times the dry level. The Drive control is limited to a nice blues overdrive (sort of like a tube amp witht the gain from 2 to 4) with extremely smooth tone. Anyway as a lead boost or blues overdrive it is the best pedal I've ever owned (and since Mike of "AnalogMan" was extremely helpful in removing the JFET switching so I could install a Carling DPDT switch, it has true bypassing).

I keep putting off opening it up and making a schematic of the changes, maybe now it's time I done so (I just hate trying to get around those little dinky Ibanez boxes, may hat is off to all those people in Korea/Japan who assemble boxes for Boss and Ibanez).

- Y.
(wyatt poist)

10/30/1997 1:20 PM
R.G.	Hi, Wyatt. If you'll do the tracing, or even relate the changes to the board positions (I have the service manual layout) I'll volunteer to schematicize it.

10/31/1997 10:51 AM
Y.	Hello. Well then, while I'm sobering up from all the Halloween parties I've got scheduled for this weekend, I'll just have to go in and trace it. -Y. (wyatt Poist)

10/30/1997 11:57 AM
John Greene	Great minds think alike. At least one of the requests the US rep for NJRC got about this was from me, about six weeks ago, looking for (a) history, and (b) supply. I do wonder about the parts marking comment, though. I was told that the NJM is the current production part, and was the current level of what had been the JRC4558, the new marking reflecting the improvements to processing that they had made over the years. She offered to make me a batch of NJM's marked "JRC" if I would order 1000 of them; also that the original JRC was available by special order, old process, for orders over 5000. This immediately raised in my mind the question about what I'd get if I DID order 5000 (which I couldn't afford, anyways). I didn't order them. Well, thinking I could get to the bottom of this (hah!) I called back today to ask some more questions. The Rep punted and forwarded me to the US national manager. It was very difficult keeping him on the subject at hand. I had to re-iterate my question four times before I got an answer that basically told me he had no idea. I read what you said in your post that you were told and he wanted to know just who I was talking to about this. I said it didn't really matter who said what, I wanted to get to the bottom of it and could he help. He was able to tell me that these parts do go through changes as they try to incorporate the die into different parts which sometimes require the die to shrink or to be thinned to fit into the package. Because the temperature characteristics change when they do this, the compensation has to change. He couldn't verify that the parts made today where the same as parts made even 3 years ago. If the date code on the part is not within a 2-3 year range of what you really want, it sounds to me you can't be certain you are getting what you really want. JRC or NJM. However, the confidence I have in the answers I received is very low. It seems unusual to me that they would be willing to manufacture the parts with the old (how old?) process for only 5000 parts. Maybe NJRC does things a little different than other companies but the majority I have experience with usually require a minimum of 10,000 pieces with the commitment to buy an additional 25,000 or so over the next one to two years. However, I have never asked a company to make the parts 'the old way'. The bottom line is, I think I found the wall as far as NJRC is concerned. They won't come right out a say, "No, the parts are not the same and never will be" because that's potentially lost sales. Any sales person will do what they can to keep the uncertainty alive because a 'maybe' has a lot better chance of selling something than a 'No'. BTW, I contacted what used to be our local rep. for NJRC first. He said he no longer Rep'd them and he was glad. He started out saying they were difficult to deal with but as he talked about it, he remembered more and more and it was kind of like reliving a very dark, depressing, time in his life. Let's say, he didn't have a very high opinion of them. I have an idea for one other angle to try, I'll let you know if anything comes out of it. --john

10/30/1997 11:57 AM

John Greene

Great minds think alike. At least one of the requests the US rep for NJRC got about this was from me, about six weeks ago, looking for (a) history, and (b) supply. I do wonder about the parts marking comment, though. I was told that the NJM is the current production part, and was the current level of what had been the JRC4558, the new marking reflecting the improvements to processing that they had made over the years. She offered to make me a batch of NJM's marked "JRC" if I would order 1000 of them; also that the original JRC was available by special order, old process, for orders over 5000. This immediately raised in my mind the question about what I'd get if I DID order 5000 (which I couldn't afford, anyways). I didn't order them.

Well, thinking I could get to the bottom of this (hah!) I called back today to ask some more questions. The Rep punted and forwarded me to the US national manager. It was very difficult keeping him on the subject at hand. I had to re-iterate my question four times before I got an answer that basically told me he had no idea. I read what you said in your post that you were told and he wanted to know just *who* I was talking to about this. I said it didn't really matter who said what, *I* wanted to get to the bottom of it and could he help.

He was able to tell me that these parts do go through changes as they try to incorporate the die into different parts which sometimes require the die to shrink or to be thinned to fit into the package. Because the temperature characteristics change when they do this, the compensation has to change. He couldn't verify that the parts made today where the same as parts made even 3 years ago.

If the date code on the part is not within a 2-3 year range of what you really want, it sounds to me you can't be certain you are getting what you really want. JRC or NJM. However, the confidence I have in the answers I received is very low.

It seems unusual to me that they would be willing to manufacture the parts with the old (how old?) process for only 5000 parts. Maybe NJRC does things a little different than other companies but the majority I have experience with usually require a minimum of 10,000 pieces with the commitment to buy an additional 25,000 or so over the next one to two years. However, I have never asked a company to make the parts 'the old way'.

The bottom line is, I think I found the wall as far as NJRC is concerned. They won't come right out a say, "No, the parts are not the same and never will be" because that's potentially lost sales. Any sales person will do what they can to keep the uncertainty alive because a 'maybe' has a lot better chance of selling something than a 'No'.

BTW, I contacted what used to be our local rep. for NJRC first. He said he no longer Rep'd them and he was glad. He started out saying they were difficult to deal with but as he talked about it, he remembered more and more and it was kind of like reliving a very dark, depressing, time in his life. Let's say, he didn't have a very high opinion of them.

I have an idea for one other angle to try, I'll let you know if anything comes out of it.

--john

10/30/1997 4:06 PM
rg	>>It seems unusual to me that they would be willing to manufacture the parts with the old (how old?) process for only 5000 parts.<< That is what was running through my head, and why I didn't take it more seriously. On the other hand, I don't KNOW that newer "JRC"'s are or are not any better or worse than the "vintage" ones at this point. Please let us know what your other angle turns up. I guess, as always, the only good guide is your ears. No magic parts. Bummer. The way I play, I could use an amulet.

10/30/1997 4:06 PM

>>It seems unusual to me that they would be
willing to manufacture the parts with the
old (how old?) process for only 5000 parts.<<

That is what was running through my head, and why I didn't take it more seriously. On the other hand, I don't KNOW that newer "JRC"'s are or are not any better or worse than the "vintage" ones at this point.

Please let us know what your other angle turns up.

I guess, as always, the only good guide is your ears.

No magic parts. Bummer. The way I play, I could *use* an amulet.

10/31/1997 11:18 AM
John Greene	Well, I gots some good news and I gots some bad news.... Basically the newer parts are going to be different because the parameters are improved each time they do a mask revision. So there is this hanging unknown that because the parts were 'improved', they may not still have the desired charactistic. There's really no way of telling as the 'character' of the sound is subjective and you can only theorize as to what is the key factor(s) that contribute to the effect. Because it's subjective, it can always be discounted, right or wrong. So, the 'magic' of the parts are something that will probably live for quite a while. One comment was that the older parts probably won't have date codes on them. He couldn't tell me exactly when they began date-coding but if it was a revision or two after the parts in question, you can't be sure of what you're getting. Please let me know if the parts you receive from Japan have date codes. Also, the only place you could possibly get these older parts is from the Pacific Rim. Back when these pedals were made(BTW when exactly were the TS-808s made?), NJR was not importing these parts into the US. I was also told that back in the 70s they had some quality problems and that the older parts are subject to failure because of oxidation amongst other things. A major manufacturer of guitar amplifiers quit buying any parts from them because of quality problems and only recently started buying parts again. Finally, the 5000 part custom manufacture you were told.....pure hooey. The manager I talked said he has gone to Japan with the request to manufacture 5 million parts and the reply was: "that's nice, come back when you need 50 Million". They aren't willing to do a custom run for any less. Bottom line, I learned a lot about NJRC but almost nothing about the topic at hand. --johng

10/31/1997 11:18 AM

John Greene

Well, I gots some good news and I gots some bad news....

Basically the newer parts are going to be different because the parameters are improved each time they do a mask revision. So there is this hanging unknown that because the parts were 'improved', they may not still have the desired charactistic. There's really no way of telling as the 'character' of the sound is subjective and you can only theorize as to what is the key factor(s) that contribute to the effect. Because it's subjective, it can always be discounted, right or wrong.

So, the 'magic' of the parts are something that will probably live for quite a while.

One comment was that the older parts probably won't have date codes on them. He couldn't tell me exactly when they began date-coding but if it was a revision or two after the parts in question, you can't be sure of what you're getting. Please let me know if the parts you receive from Japan have date codes. Also, the only place you could possibly get these older parts is from the Pacific Rim. Back when these pedals were made(BTW when exactly *were* the TS-808s made?), NJR was not importing these parts into the US. I was also told that back in the 70s they had some quality problems and that the older parts are subject to failure because of oxidation amongst other things. A major manufacturer of guitar amplifiers quit buying any parts from them because of quality problems and only recently started buying parts again.

Finally, the 5000 part custom manufacture you were told.....pure hooey. The manager I talked said he has gone to Japan with the request to manufacture 5 million parts and the reply was: "that's nice, come back when you need 50 Million". They aren't willing to do a custom run for any less.

Bottom line, I learned a lot about NJRC but almost nothing about the topic at hand.

--johng

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