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Overdrive Tone Forum

8/6/1997 11:53 AM
Bob K.	Overdrive Tone Forum So many good discussions have taken place here and so much useful information exchanged that I figured I would throw this topic out there in hopes of getting some useful feedback. I love playing guitar. I am a "basement" player. I don't belong to a band and only occasionally get a chnace to play with others. But I do love playing. Like everyone else I too am on that costant serch for the holy grail of good tone. I play a tele through a reissue twin reverb. I have got my clean tone nailed but I have yet to find my overdrive or distortion tone. I have tried, and own, a bunch of pedals (RAT, Boss OD's, Morley JD1's, etc.) All of these pedals sound great when used in front of an ampo that is played LOUD but they all seem to whimp out and sound fuzzy when the amp iis played at the lower volumes that I (have to) play at. Recently I acquired a couple of tube preamps in the hopes that I could use these as big overdrive "pedals" and find that elusive tone. But unfortunately the same things happen...crnak up the amp, the tone and sustain is great, turn the amp down, the great tone and sustaing disappears. My experiences have led me to beleive that a driven power amp and speaker(s) are instrumental in getting the tone I want. Howw came someone doesn't make a stomp box with real preamp and power amp tubes in it to do the work. Has anyone tred pushing a low power (1 watt?) power amp with a hot peamp and slaving that into a regular amp to get that overdriven power tube overdrive sound at a low volume? Does anybody know where I could get a shematic for a real low power, power amp so that I can try this myself? There has got to be a way to do this.

8/6/1997 11:53 AM

Bob K.

Overdrive Tone Forum

So many good discussions have taken place here and so much useful information exchanged that I figured I would throw this topic out there in hopes of getting some useful feedback.

I love playing guitar. I am a "basement" player. I don't belong to a band and only occasionally get a chnace to play with others. But I do love playing. Like everyone else I too am on that costant serch for the holy grail of good tone. I play a tele through a reissue twin reverb. I have got my clean tone nailed but I have yet to find my overdrive or distortion tone. I have tried, and own, a bunch of pedals (RAT, Boss OD's, Morley JD1's, etc.) All of these pedals sound great when used in front of an ampo that is played LOUD but they all seem to whimp out and sound fuzzy when the amp iis played at the lower volumes that I (have to) play at.

Recently I acquired a couple of tube preamps in the hopes that I could use these as big overdrive "pedals" and find that elusive tone. But unfortunately the same things happen...crnak up the amp, the tone and sustain is great, turn the amp down, the great tone and sustaing disappears. My experiences have led me to beleive that a driven power amp and speaker(s) are instrumental in getting the tone I want. Howw came someone doesn't make a stomp box with real preamp and power amp tubes in it to do the work. Has anyone tred pushing a low power (1 watt?) power amp with a hot peamp and slaving that into a regular amp to get that overdriven power tube overdrive sound at a low volume? Does anybody know where I could get a shematic for a real low power, power amp so that I can try this myself?

There has got to be a way to do this.

8/6/1997 12:28 PM
S.fillipp	There's at least one commercial example of the concept you are suggesting - it was (I think it's discontinued) called the "Cream Machine", and featured a small power stage. There's one for sale, if it's still there, on alt.guitar.amps. I've never heard one - years ago, I built a resistive load w/ a voltage divider network that allowed me to play my Vibrasonic through a power amp. Even with the Fender cranked, it still sounded like what you describe at low settings on the power amp.. It lacked that rich texture we all know and love - I'm beginning to think that that's a result of a number of things, for example, the feedback through the guitar, non-linearity of speakers when pushed hard, and so on that may be very difficult to capture any other way. But that's not to say we shouldn't try. Regards, SF

8/6/1997 12:28 PM

S.fillipp

There's at least one commercial example
of the concept you are suggesting -
it was (I think it's discontinued) called the
"Cream Machine", and featured a small
power stage. There's one for sale, if it's still
there, on alt.guitar.amps.

I've never heard one - years ago, I built a resistive load w/ a voltage divider
network that allowed me to play my Vibrasonic
through a power amp. Even with the Fender
cranked, it still sounded like what you describe
at low settings on the power amp..

It lacked that rich texture we all know and
love - I'm beginning to think that that's a result
of a number of things, for example, the
feedback through the guitar, non-linearity of
speakers when pushed hard, and so on that
may be very difficult to capture any other way.

But that's not to say we shouldn't try.

Regards, SF

8/27/1997 12:57 PM
Dave Charnerski	...I agree. Probably the cloeset we're ever gonna' get to "the real thing" (but at lower volumes) is a low wattage amp (15-30W) cranked to the hilt. However, I believe, and so do the editors of Guitar Player, that eventually the "physical modeling" amps like the AxSys 212 and the Yamaha DG(something or other) will be able to reproduce the cranked amp sound at any volume level. Supposedly, the Yamaha device is the closest reproduction of that sound ever found on something other than the real thing. I haven't heard it myself, but would be interested in hearing from others who have. Dave

8/27/1997 12:57 PM

Dave Charnerski

...I agree. Probably the cloeset we're ever
gonna' get to "the real thing" (but at lower
volumes) is a low wattage amp (15-30W) cranked
to the hilt. However, I believe, and so do the
editors of Guitar Player, that eventually the
"physical modeling" amps like the AxSys 212 and
the Yamaha DG(something or other) will be able
to reproduce the cranked amp sound at any volume
level. Supposedly, the Yamaha device is the
closest reproduction of that sound ever found
on something other than the real thing. I haven't
heard it myself, but would be interested in
hearing from others who have.

Dave

9/12/1997 7:56 PM
Terry Ritz	I've been using a Boss GT-5 for a couple of months now. I love it!! It's the latest product from Boss/Roland using their Composite Object Modelling technology (ie. COSM). Although the physical modelling amps are just coming out, Roland has been in the game with pre-amp emulations for some time now. They started with the VG-8 which is still their high end product. It contains pre-amp models, guitar models, etc. Next they released the GP-100, a high end rack pre-amp/processor followed by the GX-700 (also rack based) and most recently the GT-5 (floor based version from Boss). There are some reviews at Harmony Central that you may want to check out.... http://www.harmony-central.com/Effects/Data/Roland/GP-100-01.html http://www.harmony-central.com/Effects/Data/Boss/GX-700-01.html http://www.harmony-central.com/Effects/Data/Boss/GT-5-01.html As for me, I went from a Super Reverb with mods that I had done to add pre-amp distortion, to a stock Deluxe Reverb. I had planned to mod the Deluxe Reverb (actually I have two) in the same way as I had the Super Reverb, but after trying out the GT-5 I decided to buy it instead. Can computer modelling really sound as good as a tube amp? Not yet but IMHO it's relatively close. When I say that however, it's with reference to real good high end gear, which I've not been able to afford. The GT-5 however, does give me significantly better sounding distortion than my modified Super Reverb did and tons of flexibility to boot! So it's important to pick your reference point... if you have a great boutique amp, you might be disappointed. If you compare it to what most of us have, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised... and it is extremely flexible (ie. multiple pre-amp models, effects and realtime MIDI control all in one package). BTW, I run my GT-5 into the power amp section of my two Deluxe Reverbs. This seems to give me the best of both worlds... pre-amp modelling from the GT-5 and the nice, warm, slighly compressed sound of a tube power amp. Hope you find this useful! Feel free to drop me a line if you'd like more info. Terry Ritz (ritz@wei.sk.ca)

9/12/1997 7:56 PM

Terry Ritz

I've been using a Boss GT-5 for a couple of months now. I love it!! It's the latest product from Boss/Roland using their Composite Object Modelling technology (ie. COSM).

Although the physical modelling amps are just coming out, Roland has been in the game with pre-amp emulations for some time now. They started with the VG-8 which is still their high end product. It contains pre-amp models, guitar models, etc. Next they released the GP-100, a high end rack pre-amp/processor followed by the GX-700 (also rack based) and most recently the GT-5 (floor based version from Boss).

There are some reviews at Harmony Central that you may want to check out....

http://www.harmony-central.com/Effects/Data/Roland/GP-100-01.html
http://www.harmony-central.com/Effects/Data/Boss/GX-700-01.html
http://www.harmony-central.com/Effects/Data/Boss/GT-5-01.html

As for me, I went from a Super Reverb with mods that I had done to add pre-amp distortion, to a stock Deluxe Reverb. I had planned to mod the Deluxe Reverb (actually I have two) in the same way as I had the Super Reverb, but after trying out the GT-5 I decided to buy it instead.

Can computer modelling really sound as good as a tube amp? Not yet but IMHO it's relatively close. When I say that however, it's with reference to real good high end gear, which I've not been able to afford. The GT-5 however, does give me significantly better sounding distortion than my modified Super Reverb did and tons of flexibility to boot! So it's important to pick your reference point... if you have a great boutique amp, you might be disappointed. If you compare it to what most of us have, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised... and it is extremely flexible (ie. multiple pre-amp models, effects and realtime MIDI control all in one package).

BTW, I run my GT-5 into the power amp section of my two Deluxe Reverbs. This seems to give me the best of both worlds... pre-amp modelling from the GT-5 and the nice, warm, slighly compressed sound of a tube power amp.

Hope you find this useful! Feel free to drop me a line if you'd like more info.

Terry Ritz
(ritz@wei.sk.ca)

9/13/1997 3:58 AM
Steve Ahola	I got a GT-5 myself mainly because the flexibility of the effects loop. I kept reading in Roland literature about plugging your guitar amp into the effects loop of the GT-5 so that you can switch between the synthesized preamps in the Boss and the tube preamp of your guitar amp. I was very pleased with the sounds from the custom Dan Torres Super Texan mod I did to my '65 Pro and just wanted to add some variety to the sounds without losing what I already had. The GT-5 (and Roland GX-100) were the only processors I could find that would allow you to move the effects loop anywhere in the circuit on a patch-by-patch basis. Without that capability, you really can't access the native sounds of your guitar amp. In the past, I always felt that tube amp simulation circuits might SOUND like the real thing, but that they didn't FEEL like a real tube amp when you were playing them. The response and touch just wasn't the same. I approached the GT-5 with that mindset and was frankly shocked by the way it played as well as sounded. I'd have to admit that Roland is maybe 95% "there"- there is still that 5% that ISN'T the same as a good guitar plugged into a great tube amp- that almost magical interaction between singing strings, great pickups, cascading tube stages and overdriven speakers... Terry- have you considered adding cathode bias to your pair of Deluxe Reverbs? I put in a switch to toggle between fixed bias and cathode bias when I rebuilt my amp, and once I heard the warmth of cathode bias I've never put the switch back to the fixed bias position for more than a minute or two at a time just for comparison.

9/13/1997 3:58 AM

Steve Ahola

I got a GT-5 myself mainly because the flexibility of the effects loop. I kept reading in Roland literature about plugging your guitar amp into the effects loop of the GT-5 so that you can switch between the synthesized preamps in the Boss and the tube preamp of your guitar amp. I was very pleased with the sounds from the custom Dan Torres Super Texan mod I did to my '65 Pro and just wanted to add some variety to the sounds without losing what I already had. The GT-5 (and Roland GX-100) were the only processors I could find that would allow you to move the effects loop anywhere in the circuit on a patch-by-patch basis. Without that capability, you really can't access the native sounds of your guitar amp.
In the past, I always felt that tube amp simulation circuits might SOUND like the real thing, but that they didn't FEEL like a real tube amp when you were playing them. The response and touch just wasn't the same.
I approached the GT-5 with that mindset and was frankly shocked by the way it played as well as sounded. I'd have to admit that Roland is maybe 95% "there"- there is still that 5% that ISN'T the same as a good guitar plugged into a great tube amp- that almost magical interaction between singing strings, great pickups, cascading tube stages and overdriven speakers...
Terry- have you considered adding cathode bias to your pair of Deluxe Reverbs? I put in a switch to toggle between fixed bias and cathode bias when I rebuilt my amp, and once I heard the warmth of cathode bias I've never put the switch back to the fixed bias position for more than a minute or two at a time just for comparison.

9/15/1997 7:21 AM
Dave Charneski	Steve, OK, that does it! You've done it now! I'm gonna' give that GT-5 a listen. I like the way you can put your amp in the GT-5 effects loop on a patch-by-patch basis. If it sounds good with my amp, that may just be the ticket I need for expanding my sounds a little. Thanks for the great info! Dave Charneski charnesk@kodak.com dcharneski@ibm.net

9/15/1997 7:15 AM
Dave Charneski	Terry, Wow! Thanks for the information! I've always wanted to try those floor-model, all-in-one gizmos, but just never took the time because of past disappointments. I DID try the AxSys 212 and was disappointed. GP did a review of it not long ago and came up with the same opinions. However, I've heard lots of good things about the Roland gear, especially the VG-8. I know a lot of pros have started using it. As for running the GT-5 into a tube power amp, it seems that a lot of folks are using those devices in the same way and are getting better results than running them into a solid state power amp. I agree with you that some of the new preamp emulators get better overdrive/distortion sounds than real overdriven 12AX7s. I think that's because we all REALLY like the sound of overdriven POWER tubes, with just a small touch of 12AX7 breakup. The master volume amps, unless they're cranked, just don't get that smooth overdrive sound with lots of sustain. Regarding boutique amps, I have played many and actually own one (i.e. Tone-Master) and the laws of physics apply equally to them as well! In order to sound smooth, you need to set them up so that you get more power amp saturation than preamp, otherwise, they sound too fuzzy amd harsh. (Matchless amps have especially harsh preamp distortion, but sound heavenly when cranked!) You make an excellent point regarding the flexibility of the GT-5-like devices. I often get frustrated tweaking knobs in between songs on stage in order to get all the sounds I need. It would be nice to just punch in a new patch. I'll have to get out to the store and try the GT-5. Thanks again for the info (although my wife may not be so appreciative if I happen to walk in the door with another box)! Dave Charneski charnesk@kodak.com dcharneski@ibm.net

9/15/1997 7:15 AM

Dave Charneski

Terry,

Wow! Thanks for the information! I've always
wanted to try those floor-model, all-in-one
gizmos, but just never took the time because
of past disappointments. I DID try the
AxSys 212 and was disappointed. GP did a
review of it not long ago and came up with
the same opinions. However, I've heard lots of
good things about the Roland gear, especially
the VG-8. I know a lot of pros have started
using it. As for running the GT-5 into a
tube power amp, it seems that a lot of folks
are using those devices in the same way and are
getting better results than running them
into a solid state power amp. I agree with
you that some of the new preamp emulators get
better overdrive/distortion sounds than real
overdriven 12AX7s. I think that's because we
all REALLY like the sound of overdriven
POWER tubes, with just a small touch of
12AX7 breakup. The master volume amps, unless
they're cranked, just don't get that smooth
overdrive sound with lots of sustain.

Regarding boutique amps, I have played many
and actually own one (i.e. Tone-Master) and
the laws of physics apply equally to them as
well! In order to sound smooth, you need to
set them up so that you get more power amp
saturation than preamp, otherwise, they sound
too fuzzy amd harsh. (Matchless amps have
especially harsh preamp distortion, but sound
heavenly when cranked!)

You make an excellent point regarding the
flexibility of the GT-5-like devices. I often
get frustrated tweaking knobs in between songs
on stage in order to get all the sounds I need.
It would be nice to just punch in a new patch.

I'll have to get out to the store and try the
GT-5. Thanks again for the info (although my
wife may not be so appreciative if I happen
to walk in the door with another box)!

Dave Charneski
charnesk@kodak.com
dcharneski@ibm.net

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