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previous: Mark Hammer Shortly after he arrived, he steppe... -- 9/25/2003 4:25 PM

Re: Bush Approval Drops to 49%

9/25/2003 6:53 PM
Craig	Re: Bush Approval Drops to 49% Mark, No offense intended - I have a great deal of respect for you, and this is not an argument in favor of knee-jerk-ism, but I sometimes wish you would not be so diplomatic in your analysis. The reason? It fails to acknowledge the actual harm this administration has caused deliberately, through blatant lies and systematic deceit. You seem to rationalize to a fault where real lives are affected by this administrations' constant manipulations. OTOH, I may have a lot of emotion wrapped up in it and as a result I have a hard time reading your posts. I thought I'd at least try to communicate. This stuff disturbs me because they rely on manipulation to accomplish their goals instead of upon democratic means. They lean too heavily on fascistic tactics, and my personal life history does not predispose me to accepting it as the status quo. Its funny: after several assualts, I feel less threatened by physical violence than I do by the arrogance and ignorance that lies beneath such acts. Why? How can I dismiss all the evidence that Bush didn't simply "step into" a horrific tragedy? The threats were known, and while we've been fed a steady diet of nonsense claims about how our very well-funded intelligence agencies were stymied by inter-agency childishness/unprofessionalism resulting in non-cooperation & lack of shared intel, that doesn't map too well to the total lack of heads rolling in the wake of such monumental incompetence - not to mention the mind-numbing stiff-arming the families of 9/11 victims have been given by BushCo re: what the hell happened that day. Edwards AF base had 2 squadrons assigned to react immediately - it has been FAA SOP for decades to get the AF fighters in the air as soon as it is determined that a hijacking is underway - NO ONE NEEDS TO CALL THE PRESIDENT or wait to be told what to do - they TRAIN for this scenario. Where were they? IMO they were stood down so Bush could jump-start his right-wing agenda. They knew it was coming, let it happen, then capitalized on it everywhere they could. I think it utterly feasable that they actully pulled off Operation Northwoods. If they could manage to shuttle 140 Saudis out of the country in the days immediately following 9/11 (a fact the Bush administration does not deny nor take responsibility for but which is undisputed) - certainly a testament to their selectively applied "competence" - where was that problem-solving ingenuity prior to 9/11? You give BushCo too much credit for being genuine IMO. These guys are crooks any way you slice it, and the fact that they ALLOWED 9/11 to occur seems obvious. Unpleasant, challenging, terrifying - yes, but obvious. I read in this morning's USA Today (nestled neatly in the middle pages) that Bush is requesting more millions for a special military unit to protect Iraqi oil pipelines. 40 million for a rapid-repsonse team to repair pipelines after they get sabotaged. No WMD, no Iraqi-Al Qaeda connections, no immediate nuclear threat - but we got that oil. Well, not "we" so much as "BushCo". "We" get the bill and the increased oil pricing, most recently represented by the Labor Day price spike gouge, and the OPEC withholding of supply. Why we haven't invaded Saudi Arabia is a good question. I mean, we've gone into Afghanistan & Iraq, but most of the blame for 9/11 is squarely on the heads of the Saudis. So we attack two soveriegn nations - one preemptively - but shuttle the Saudis out. OK. Bush didn't "step into" anything. BushCo & the Saudis are business partners. What else could possibly explain the willingness, let alone the political hutzpah required to secretly rescue 140 Saudis? If it was all on the up and up, one would think they would not be so ashamed of such an accomplishment. Shuttling the Saudis out was such an important task that it required bending the no-fly rules in place at that time. This in the first few days after 9/11 - remember that? That was the period we were being bombarded 24/7 with images of Saudi hijackers - as well as with footage of innocents plummeting to their deaths from the towers. So in the first few days after 9/11, BushCo had the skills and the balls to secret the Saudis out of the country, but it didn't have the skills and the balls to interrogate those same Saudis? Rummy's first order of business was to get his people to link it all to Saddam - "Sweep it all up - related and not - link it to Saddam". BushCo paints themselves as incompetent (sans the consequences of course) when it serves them but clearly nothing in this administration happens by accident. Cheney claims he knew nothing about the Saudis being shuttled out. OK, so your job is what again? Oh, yes: VP of the most powerful democracy on the planet - and you didn't know that 140 Saudis were being shuttled out? Yeah, OK DICK. I guess your line about the millions currently being paid to you by Halliburton retroactively are just another co-inky-dink too, eh? I feel dirty just repeating his piss-poor lies. I am repulsed by this administration & they have been given plenty of rope as is. Painting them with a mundane/just-another-day-in-politics kind of brush seems not only preposterous but also dangerous because it promotes a certain sense of all this being normal=acceptable. It isn't. These guys cannot win elections so they steal them. They cannot promote their self-serving agenda as being good for all Americans because it isn't - so they lie about their agenda during the election - "Compassionate Conservatism" my ass. They announce fiscal support for AIDS care in Africa then secretly undermine the commitment by underfunding. They have done that with nearly every one of their objectives, and there is a reason why they are looting the public kitty - because they cannot sell the raiding of the Social Security fund or Medicare on legitimate terms. OK, perhaps I doth emote too much but I had to say something. I know your intelligence & experience will likely dwarf my own in your response but I can take it. Craig

9/25/2003 6:53 PM

Craig

Re: Bush Approval Drops to 49%

Mark,

No offense intended - I have a great deal of respect for you, and this is not an argument in favor of knee-jerk-ism, but I sometimes wish you would not be so diplomatic in your analysis. The reason? It fails to acknowledge the actual harm this administration has caused deliberately, through blatant lies and systematic deceit. You seem to rationalize to a fault where real lives are affected by this administrations' constant manipulations.

OTOH, I may have a lot of emotion wrapped up in it and as a result I have a hard time reading your posts.

I thought I'd at least try to communicate. This stuff disturbs me because they rely on manipulation to accomplish their goals instead of upon democratic means. They lean too heavily on fascistic tactics, and my personal life history does not predispose me to accepting it as the status quo.

Its funny: after several assualts, I feel less threatened by physical violence than I do by the arrogance and ignorance that lies beneath such acts. Why?

How can I dismiss all the evidence that Bush didn't simply "step into" a horrific tragedy? The threats were known, and while we've been fed a steady diet of nonsense claims about how our very well-funded intelligence agencies were stymied by inter-agency childishness/unprofessionalism resulting in non-cooperation & lack of shared intel, that doesn't map too well to the total lack of heads rolling in the wake of such monumental incompetence - not to mention the mind-numbing stiff-arming the families of 9/11 victims have been given by BushCo re: what the hell happened that day.

Edwards AF base had 2 squadrons assigned to react immediately - it has been FAA SOP for decades to get the AF fighters in the air as soon as it is determined that a hijacking is underway - NO ONE NEEDS TO CALL THE PRESIDENT or wait to be told what to do - they TRAIN for this scenario. Where were they? IMO they were stood down so Bush could jump-start his right-wing agenda. They knew it was coming, let it happen, then capitalized on it everywhere they could. I think it utterly feasable that they actully pulled off Operation Northwoods. If they could manage to shuttle 140 Saudis out of the country in the days immediately following 9/11 (a fact the Bush administration does not deny nor take responsibility for but which is undisputed) - certainly a testament to their selectively applied "competence" - where was that problem-solving ingenuity prior to 9/11?

You give BushCo too much credit for being genuine IMO. These guys are crooks any way you slice it, and the fact that they ALLOWED 9/11 to occur seems obvious. Unpleasant, challenging, terrifying - yes, but obvious.

I read in this morning's USA Today (nestled neatly in the middle pages) that Bush is requesting more millions for a special military unit to protect Iraqi oil pipelines. 40 million for a rapid-repsonse team to repair pipelines after they get sabotaged. No WMD, no Iraqi-Al Qaeda connections, no immediate nuclear threat - but we got that oil. Well, not "we" so much as "BushCo". "We" get the bill and the increased oil pricing, most recently represented by the Labor Day price spike gouge, and the OPEC withholding of supply.

Why we haven't invaded Saudi Arabia is a good question. I mean, we've gone into Afghanistan & Iraq, but most of the blame for 9/11 is squarely on the heads of the Saudis. So we attack two soveriegn nations - one preemptively - but shuttle the Saudis out. OK.

Bush didn't "step into" anything. BushCo & the Saudis are business partners. What else could possibly explain the willingness, let alone the political hutzpah required to secretly rescue 140 Saudis? If it was all on the up and up, one would think they would not be so ashamed of such an accomplishment. Shuttling the Saudis out was such an important task that it required bending the no-fly rules in place at that time. This in the first few days after 9/11 - remember that? That was the period we were being bombarded 24/7 with images of Saudi hijackers - as well as with footage of innocents plummeting to their deaths from the towers. So in the first few days after 9/11, BushCo had the skills and the balls to secret the Saudis out of the country, but it didn't have the skills and the balls to interrogate those same Saudis? Rummy's first order of business was to get his people to link it all to Saddam - "Sweep it all up - related and not - link it to Saddam".

BushCo paints themselves as incompetent (sans the consequences of course) when it serves them but clearly nothing in this administration happens by accident. Cheney claims he knew nothing about the Saudis being shuttled out. OK, so your job is what again? Oh, yes: VP of the most powerful democracy on the planet - and you didn't know that 140 Saudis were being shuttled out? Yeah, OK DICK. I guess your line about the millions currently being paid to you by Halliburton retroactively are just another co-inky-dink too, eh? I feel dirty just repeating his piss-poor lies.

I am repulsed by this administration & they have been given plenty of rope as is. Painting them with a mundane/just-another-day-in-politics kind of brush seems not only preposterous but also dangerous because it promotes a certain sense of all this being normal=acceptable.

It isn't. These guys cannot win elections so they steal them. They cannot promote their self-serving agenda as being good for all Americans because it isn't - so they lie about their agenda during the election - "Compassionate Conservatism" my ass. They announce fiscal support for AIDS care in Africa then secretly undermine the commitment by underfunding. They have done that with nearly every one of their objectives, and there is a reason why they are looting the public kitty - because they cannot sell the raiding of the Social Security fund or Medicare on legitimate terms.

OK, perhaps I doth emote too much but I had to say something. I know your intelligence & experience will likely dwarf my own in your response but I can take it.

Craig

Replies:

Mark Hammer Thanks for your comments and apprec... -- 9/25/2003 8:10 PM
Stephen Giles Several words come to mind here whi... -- 10/5/2003 2:50 PM
Stephen Giles I've just realised that Little Bush... -- 10/5/2003 2:52 PM
ben lansbergen Hi Craig,and now he's askin... -- 10/6/2003 7:18 PM