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previous: Hi I've heard all these arguments befo... -- 8/8/1999 3:25 AM

Re:(YIKES!!) Guys please!

8/8/1999 6:23 PM
Trace	Re:(YIKES!!) Guys please! Hey All; There have been some great points made on both sides and as opinions goes...there is no "right or wrong". I play in a band and also run sound (not as much as I used to) as well as being a recording engineer in a studio by day (sort of like Clark Kent I guess--ha, ha) Anyway there is something that has not been mentioned that I think is valid here. (keep in mind my bassist has a 1969 SVT head and cabinet and I've recorded and miked many in my day) It is different standing next to your bass rig when you are playing as opposed to being in the crowd and listening. For that matter it's also different when you are the sound man standing at the board. I've seen some great sound men and a lot of really bad ones. (a friend works for ShowCo and is very good) Here's the thing that we all need to remember ... you need to factor in room acoustics and the fact that certain frequencies take a lot more "travel time" (sound going from your amp to the back of the club or room) for lower frequencies to build up to actually be heard by human ears. An SVT is well known amoung pro sound men to "build up" bass frequencies in the back of the room from the stage volume being too loud. Some rooms are very "bass heavy" meaning the lower frequencies build up a lot more in the rear fo the room and can sound "boomy" as all heck. A "good" sound man will walk to the back of the room, the the center of the room and basically everywhere people are standing to listen to the mix. Why? because it DOES sound different through out the room and you HAVE to mix to the ROOM. One room I was just mixing is a great example of this. The mix was sounding killer from where I was standing in the mixing booth. When I stepped out of the booth (and down two steps) and walked about 10 feet back....I noticed I couldn't hear any vocals at all. I walked back up to the booth and they sounded great. the problem was that the ONLY place the vocals sounded great was where I was standing! When I made the adjustment and boosted them it sounde dloud as hell to me but everywhere else in the room it was perfect. We all know how it goes and we've all been through it a million times. We start of the set(s) and people are in the back of the room until they "loosen up" and are ready to have a good time. If the sound is anything but great half of them will tend to leave. (not too good for business) On the other turn of the screw I also understand that you need to hear yourself on stage. A player never plays well if they can not hear themselves well enough but there is a fine line between keeping the harmony on stage and being the loudest guy in the town that night. I also play bass and I know it's impossible to "lock in" or play in the pocket if the bass rig is so loud that I can't hear the kick drum. I've never opened up an SVT passed "3" even when there's a 50 watt plexi on "10" next to me. (not judging...just siting my experinece is all) It seems that as a bassist I get more calls simply because I am playing in the pocket and the only way I can do that is to hear the kick drum (the snare is never usually a problem to hear) Long story short...you can't judge what's coming out opf the PA from the stage. There's no art to being forced to mix around a blaring instrument (what ever it is) and the crowd that comes to the bars isn't ready to hear 120db until (MAYBE) the very end of the night. I would also suggest finding a good sound man and paying him what ever it's worth. They money will always come back to you through more repeat bookings, better pay at the same clubs, and getting more calls to play bass. Just my 2 cents worth Trace

8/8/1999 6:23 PM

Trace

Re:(YIKES!!) Guys please!

Hey All;

There have been some great points made on both sides and as opinions goes...there is no "right or wrong". I play in a band and also run sound (not as much as I used to) as well as being a recording engineer in a studio by day (sort of like Clark Kent I guess--ha, ha)

Anyway there is something that has not been mentioned that I think is valid here. (keep in mind my bassist has a 1969 SVT head and cabinet and I've recorded and miked many in my day)

It is different standing next to your bass rig when you are playing as opposed to being in the crowd and listening. For that matter it's also different when you are the sound man standing at the board. I've seen some great sound men and a lot of really bad ones. (a friend works for ShowCo and is very good)

Here's the thing that we all need to remember ... you need to factor in room acoustics and the fact that certain frequencies take a lot more "travel time" (sound going from your amp to the back of the club or room) for lower frequencies to build up to actually be heard by human ears. An SVT is well known amoung pro sound men to "build up" bass frequencies in the back of the room from the stage volume being too loud.

Some rooms are very "bass heavy" meaning the lower frequencies build up a lot more in the rear fo the room and can sound "boomy" as all heck. A "good" sound man will walk to the back of the room, the the center of the room and basically everywhere people are standing to listen to the mix. Why? because it DOES sound different through out the room and you HAVE to mix to the ROOM. One room I was just mixing is a great example of this.

The mix was sounding killer from where I was standing in the mixing booth. When I stepped out of the booth (and down two steps) and walked about 10 feet back....I noticed I couldn't hear any vocals at all. I walked back up to the booth and they sounded great. the problem was that the ONLY place the vocals sounded great was where I was standing! When I made the adjustment and boosted them it sounde dloud as hell to me but everywhere else in the room it was perfect.

We all know how it goes and we've all been through it a million times. We start of the set(s) and people are in the back of the room until they "loosen up" and are ready to have a good time. If the sound is anything but great half of them will tend to leave. (not too good for business)

On the other turn of the screw I also understand that you need to hear yourself on stage. A player never plays well if they can not hear themselves well enough but there is a fine line between keeping the harmony on stage and being the loudest guy in the town that night.

I also play bass and I know it's impossible to "lock in"

or play in the pocket if the bass rig is so loud that I can't hear the kick drum. I've never opened up an SVT passed "3" even when there's a 50 watt plexi on "10" next to me. (not judging...just siting my experinece is all) It seems that as a bassist I get more calls simply because I am playing in the pocket and the only way I can do that is to hear the kick drum (the snare is never usually a problem to hear)

Long story short...you can't judge what's coming out opf the PA from the stage. There's no art to being forced to mix around a blaring instrument (what ever it is) and the crowd that comes to the bars isn't ready to hear 120db until (MAYBE) the very end of the night. I would also suggest finding a good sound man and paying him what ever it's worth. They money will always come back to you through more repeat bookings, better pay at the same clubs, and getting more calls to play bass.

Just my 2 cents worth

Trace